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We answer your questions about the people, places, and things that make this region so special.","canonicalUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious","imageData":{"ogImageSize":{"file":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Bay-Curious-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg","width":1200,"height":630},"twImageSize":{"file":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Bay-Curious-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg"},"twitterCard":"summary_large_image"}},"labelTerm":{"site":""},"publishDate":1677106147,"content":"\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken full-width\">\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Contact Us\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">\n\u003cp>Send us a note at \u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Follow Us\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">\n\u003cp>Follow us on Instagram:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/oallenprice/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on Twitter:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/kqedbaycurious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@kqedbaycurious\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/oallenprice\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-biographies\">\n\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[{"blockName":"kqed/hero","attrs":{"titleLayout":"svg","titleSVG":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Bay-Curious-Logotype@2x.png","backgroundImageAlt":"Bay Curious","backgroundImageUrl":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Bay-Curious-Podcast-Banner-1280x500-1.jpg","blurb":"Bay Curious is a show about your questions – and the adventures you find when you go looking for the answers. Join host Olivia Allen-Price to explore all aspects of the Bay Area – from the debate over \"Frisco\", to the dinosaurs that once roamed California, to the causes of homelessness. Whether you lived here your whole life, or just arrived, Bay Curious will deepen your understanding of this place you call home.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Looking for more ways to get involved? Play our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious#hearken-10392\">trivia contest\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">sign up for our newsletter\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://survey.alchemer.com/s3/7325022/e2726178469b\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">take our latest survey\u003c/a>, and \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/baycuriousbook\">check out our book\u003c/a>.","blurbImageAlt":"Bay Curious","blurbImageUrl":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Bay-Curious-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg","previewID":"news_11156856","hasSponsorLogo":true},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]},{"blockName":"kqed/columns","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"kqed/column","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"kqed/hearken","attrs":{"iframeId":"656","className":"half-width"},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/column","attrs":{"heading":"Voting Round"},"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"kqed/hearken","attrs":{"header":"Voting Round","iframeId":"4627","className":"half-width"},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">\n\n\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">",null,"\n\n",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/post-list","attrs":{"layout":"cardsRecent","query":"posts?series=baycurious&queryId=11abbf1cc97","title":"Stories","seeMore":true,"sizeBase":6,"sizeSeeMore":6},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]},{"blockName":"kqed/hearken","attrs":{"header":"Monthly Trivia Contest","summary":"Thanks for playing our trivia game, sponsored by Sierra Nevada Brewing Company! From all correct entries, we'll randomly select one winner each month for the prize pack of Bay Curious and Sierra Nevada goodies (Approximate value $50).","iframeId":"10392","className":"full-width"},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken full-width\">\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken full-width\">\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/listen-and-subscribe","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]},{"blockName":"kqed/columns","attrs":{"heading":"Contact / Follow"},"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"kqed/column","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"core/heading","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Contact Us\u003c/h2>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Contact Us\u003c/h2>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/section","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"core/paragraph","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cp>Send us a note at \u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cp>Send us a note at \u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"core/paragraph","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\n\n\n\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">",null,"\n\n",null,"\n\n",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/column","attrs":{"heading":"Follow Us"},"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"core/heading","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Follow Us\u003c/h2>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Follow Us\u003c/h2>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/section","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"core/paragraph","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cp>Follow us on Instagram:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/oallenprice/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cp>Follow us on Instagram:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/oallenprice/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"]},{"blockName":"core/paragraph","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cp>Follow us on Twitter:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/kqedbaycurious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@kqedbaycurious\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/oallenprice\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cp>Follow us on Twitter:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/kqedbaycurious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@kqedbaycurious\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/oallenprice\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">\n\n\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">",null,"\n\n",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\n\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">",null,"\n\n",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">\n\n\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">",null,"\n\n",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/biographies","attrs":{"heading":"The Bay Curious Team","bioType":"white"},"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"kqed/biographies-item","attrs":{"mediaURL":"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_2562-e1572650381510.jpg","mediaAlt":"Olivia Allen-Price","name":"Olivia Allen-Price","position":"Host / Editor","bio":"Olivia is a big believer in the value of public-powered journalism. She helped launch \u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em> as a radio series in 2015, then turned it into a podcast in 2017. Before working on the show, Olivia was an engagement producer at KQED. She's also worked at \u003cem>The Baltimore Sun\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Virginian-Pilot\u003c/em>. When not tethered to a computer by a pair of headphones, Olivia loves running, playing with other people's dogs and taking weekend trips around California. Follow her on \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/oallenprice\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Twitter\u003c/a> or \u003ca href=\"https://instagram.com/oallenprice\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Instagram.\u003c/a>","link":"/author/oallenprice"},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]},{"blockName":"kqed/biographies-item","attrs":{"mediaURL":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/a6a567574dafefa959593925eead665c?s=600&d=https://i.imgur.com/u9MDiPR.png&r=g","mediaAlt":"Katrina Schwartz","name":"Katrina Schwartz","position":"Producer","bio":"Katrina grew up in San Francisco and loves learning new things about her hometown. She helped pilot the first iteration of\u003cem> Bay Curious\u003c/em> when it was just a radio feature. Before joining the team, Katrina reported on education for \u003cem>MindShift\u003c/em> and was a finalist for the Education Writers Association beat reporting and audio storytelling awards. She co-hosts the \u003cem>MindShift\u003c/em> podcast about the future of learning, and has been making radio since 2010. When she’s not reporting, Katrina loves reading, the ocean and the mountains, and playing ultimate frisbee.","link":""},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-biographies\">\n\n\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-biographies\">",null,"\n\n",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/ad","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]},{"blockName":"kqed/programs","attrs":{"title":"We Also Recommend","programIDs":["mindshift","rightnowish","soldout","onourwatch","thebay","forum"]},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]}],"status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1713221684,"format":"standard","path":"/podcasts/baycurious","redirect":{"type":"internal","url":"/podcasts/baycurious"},"audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken full-width\">\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Contact Us\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">\n\u003cp>Send us a note at \u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Follow Us\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">\n\u003cp>Follow us on Instagram:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/oallenprice/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on Twitter:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/kqedbaycurious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@kqedbaycurious\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/oallenprice\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-biographies\">\n\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"featImg":"root-site_21263","label":"root-site","isLoading":false}},"postsReducer":{"stream_live":{"type":"live","id":"stream_live","audioUrl":"https://streams.kqed.org/kqedradio","title":"Live Stream","excerpt":"Live Stream information currently unavailable.","link":"/radio","featImg":"","label":{"name":"KQED Live","link":"/"}},"stream_kqedNewscast":{"type":"posts","id":"stream_kqedNewscast","audioUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/.stream/anon/radio/RDnews/newscast.mp3?_=1","title":"KQED Newscast","featImg":"","label":{"name":"88.5 FM","link":"/"}},"news_11986396":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11986396","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"news","id":"11986396","score":null,"sort":[1715853627000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"when-bart-was-built-people-and-houses-had-to-go","title":"When BART Was Built, People — and Houses — Had to Go","publishDate":1715853627,"format":"standard","headTitle":"When BART Was Built, People — and Houses — Had to Go | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":33523,"site":"news"},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in the early 1960s, when BART was just a sketch on a map, planners with the young transit agency had a task in front of them. BART had to acquire around 2,200 parcels of land in order to build the transportation system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Exactly how the agency went about getting that land was something that always puzzled Janine Dictor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For her, the question was also personal. Growing up, her family would tell stories about an amazing house her great-grandparents used to own in North Oakland, at 59th, and what is now Martin Luther King Jr. Way (it was called Grove Street back then). But the stories always ended with how they had to sell their home to BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]“There was always a sad tone to the story as if they didn’t have control over it,” Dictor said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dictor’s great-grandparents, Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo, loved that house. They were both immigrants from Italy, and they kept the house full of family, friends and good food. Vito tended a bountiful garden in the backyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My grandmother loved to cook in the basement,” said Johanne Dictor, Janine’s mother. “She had this great kitchen downstairs where she made her ravioli; she made her sausages with her women friends.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a happy time, but it didn’t last. By the time Johanne was a teenager in the early ‘60s, one topic started to dominate their family dinners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remember we’d be sitting at the table and they’d say, ‘They’re going to take my house, they say we have to sell it. And we have to leave everything here.’ And you know, they just were devastated,” said Johanne about her grandparents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ultimately, the Campilongos sold their house to BART and moved to San Leandro. Her grandfather planted a new garden, but he felt it was never as big or as beautiful as the one in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He’d sit on the porch in San Leandro looking so sad,” remembers Johanne.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All this history left Janine wondering how exactly the sale of her great-grandparents’ house went down. So she asked KQED’s Bay Curious to look into how much property BART acquired at the time of its inception and whether any homeowners challenged the agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There must be a pretty robust story behind all of this, and it’s just odd that we never have known quite what it is,” Janine said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986429\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1384px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2024/05/16/when-bart-was-built-people-and-houses-had-to-go/vito_elizabeth_family/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11986429\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986429\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family.png\" alt=\"An old black-and-white photo of a family in their living room\" width=\"1384\" height=\"1020\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family.png 1384w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family-800x590.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family-1020x752.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family-160x118.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1384px) 100vw, 1384px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo (center) left their North Oakland home in the 1960s to make room for a BART line. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Campilongo family)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>And so BART begins\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Like much of the country in the early 1950s, the Bay Area was in a post-war building boom. New houses were going up all over the region, in places like Concord and Fremont. City planners had to figure out how folks would get around and travel between all these developments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State lawmakers began \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=San_Francisco_Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit_Commission%E2%80%94The_Beginnings\">mapping out\u003c/a> a regional transportation system to connect the suburbs to the economic hubs of Oakland and San Francisco. In 1957, they passed a bill creating the Bay Area Rapid Transit District.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But BART needed land, including in residential areas where property was already owned and inhabited by people. As an entity charged with building public infrastructure, BART was given the power of eminent domain, a legal tool that helped it acquire the needed property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Radhika Rao, a professor at UC San Francisco College of the Law, eminent domain allows the government to take people’s property “even if they don’t consent,” as long as it pays them fair market value for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eminent domain is an important tool for governments, said Rao, because infrastructure projects like hospitals, public schools, highways, parks and train tracks might never be built without it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Because you could have one private property owner who says, ‘My house stands in the way, you can’t build a highway,’ and then we have no highway. So our infrastructure depends upon government having this power,” Rao said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, Rao says, historically, the use of eminent domain in California has disproportionately affected low-income people and communities of color.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[pullquote size=\"medium\" align=\"right\" citation=\"Radhika Rao, UC San Francisco College of Law\"]‘That just makes economic sense, right? Why would government situate your infrastructure in a place where you have to pay more?’[/pullquote]One reason, she said, is that government agencies often use eminent domain in areas with lower property values since it costs them less to acquire that property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That just makes economic sense, right? Why would government situate your infrastructure in a place where you have to pay more?” Rao said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another reason for the disproportionate impact, suggests Rao, is that government officials choose to develop areas where residents are less likely to organize against them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Who has the money to hire a lawyer and go to court saying, ‘the compensation that you’re offering me is not fair market value?’ Rao said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>West Oakland residents displaced\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>One of the places in the Bay Area hit hardest by eminent domain projects — including, but not limited to, BART construction — was West Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maxine Willis Ussery was born in Shreveport, Louisiana in 1939, but her family moved to West Oakland when she was just a few years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I was a girl, Seventh Street and all of West Oakland was predominantly Black, owned by Black people. Beautiful old Victorians were there,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her family, like many Black families at the time, had come from the South in search of work and a better life. Her mother and father made the journey from Louisiana and settled in West Oakland. They found jobs at the nearby Naval shipyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They had no problems understanding that they had to develop their own businesses, their own services because that’s how they lived in the South,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She says the West Oakland community had everything they needed: drug stores, groceries, restaurants, churches, doctors, and lawyers. But starting in the 1950s, successive government infrastructure projects ripped apart the fabric of this community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>First, government agencies demolished homes and businesses for the Nimitz Freeway (Interstate 880) in the 1950s. Then, in the following decades, they cleared more buildings to make way for the Oakland Main Post Office and the Acorn housing projects. And then, \u003ca href=\"https://diva.sfsu.edu/collections/sfbatv/bundles/232778\">there was BART\u003c/a>. The Oakland Planning Department estimates that between 5,100 and 9,700 housing units were lost in West Oakland in the 1960s alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was like a dispersement of a whole community, not just taking the buildings, it was taking people who had lived there. Teachers, athletes, all of them were displaced,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The effect on the community was disastrous, she said, especially for the older folks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They were up in age, and they were moved into areas where they could afford to go with the money they were given for BART, which was not a lot,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A KQED analysis of the 1960 census reveals that the West Oakland census tracts hardest hit by eminent domain were where people of color lived — in some areas, as many as 95% of the residents were Black. Annual incomes in the development zones were also far lower than the city average. The neighborhood in North Oakland where the Campilongos lived had a higher median income but was also predominantly Black.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986231\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/240514-eminentdomain-25-bl-kqed/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986231\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A BART train above two streets intersecting\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A BART train runs along the tracks at 59th Street and Martin Luther King Jr Way in Oakland on May 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Berkeley residents resist BART plans\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Some East Bay residents, such as Mable Howard of Berkeley, successfully altered BART’s path.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Howard argued that BART’s plan to construct raised tracks through part of the city would further divide it along racial lines. Her legal challenge was highlighted in the documentary “\u003ca href=\"https://video.kqed.org/video/welcome-to-the-neighborhood-truly-ca-zag6fb/\">Welcome to the Neighborhood\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the documentary explains, in 1966, Berkeley voters approved a tax that would pay to put BART completely underground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But BART proposed a design for the Ashby station that was slightly above ground. Howard felt that the design would further segregate the city. She teamed up with the late East Bay politician Ron Dellums, then a city council member, to successfully sue the agency to underground all their Berkeley infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We won the case. How do we know we won the case? Go to Berkeley. You’ll see the whole thing’s underground,” said attorney Matthew Weinberg in the film.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>BART spokesperson: ‘Lessons learned’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>These days, it is hard to imagine a Bay Area without BART. People from all over the Bay Area make millions of trips on it every month. Even the aerial tracks that tower over Martin Luther King Jr. Way, where the Campilongo house used to stand, seem to blend into the background of freeways and buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART’s Chief Communications Officer Alicia Trost says it’s still important for the agency to acknowledge the past harms that the agency committed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There was a lot of generational wealth that was deeply impacted, if not destroyed, because of the building of the BART system,” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART now has an Office of Civil Rights and other equity initiatives that Trost says are critical to rebuilding trust with the community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[pullquote size=\"medium\" align=\"right\" citation=\"Alicia Trost, BART\"]‘There was a lot of generational wealth that was deeply impacted if not destroyed because of the building of the BART system.’[/pullquote]“Especially when we’re building on our land, we want to make sure there’s a carve-out specifically for affordable housing and that we are in a daily conversation with the community to make sure what we’re building is something that they want,” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the agency imagines future development, like building a possible second transbay tube between San Francisco and Oakland, she says they’re also developing plans to prevent the displacement of residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trost said the uprooting of residents to create BART in the 1960s provided “lessons learned,” and mistakes that shouldn’t be repeated were made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State leaders are also looking at the long-term impact that eminent domain property transfers have had on families and communities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California State Senator Steven Bradford, a member of California’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/reparations\">Reparations Task Force\u003c/a>, introduced a bill in February that would compensate former property owners if their parcel was taken through eminent domain, but they didn’t receive just compensation due to racism or discrimination by the government.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The price the Campilongos paid\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986413\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2024/05/16/when-bart-was-built-people-and-houses-had-to-go/campilongo_contract_page_01/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11986413\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11986413\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-800x1032.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"1032\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-800x1032.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-1020x1316.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-160x206.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-1190x1536.jpg 1190w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-1587x2048.jpg 1587w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01.jpg 1701w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The contract the Campilongos signed with BART.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A public records request submitted by KQED reveals that the Bay Area Rapid Transit District paid Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo $25,000 for their property in North Oakland on Sept. 2, 1965. Adjusted for inflation, that’s about $245,000 today. These days, homes go for around $1 million in that neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Janine and Johanne Dictor were excited to see the contract their relatives signed with BART, the physical evidence of their family history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Doesn’t that look like Nana’s handwriting?” Janine asked her mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But after the initial excitement, the mood turned somber.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s about a lot more than what they were compensated,” Janine said. “It’s about the fact that they were forced into this, that they lost a lifestyle, that they lost a community,”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The premise of using eminent domain is that individual sacrifices are warranted to build public infrastructure. However, for families like the Dictors, the construction of BART was a painful turn in their history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“After we lost that house, we lost the sense of our family in a way. It was kind of driven apart,” her mom, Johanne, added. “That house really brought us together.”\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>\u003cbr>\nSpecial thanks to Pam Uzzell for providing parts of her documentary “Welcome to the Neighborhood” and to KQED’s Dan Brekke for reporting support and data analysis. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of BART\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Johanne Dictor points at the grassy median dividing the six lanes of Martin Luther King Junior Way in North Oakland. An elevated BART track towers overhead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> I guess my grandmother’s house was right here on the, the tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Johanne’s grandparents, Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo were immigrants from Italy. They loved their home on what was then 59th and Grove street in Oakland … Grove is Martin Luther King Jr Way these days. They kept the house full of family, friends and, as is the Italian way … good food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> So she, she had this great kitchen downstairs where she made her ravioli. She made her sausages with her women friends. They’d come over, and all day, they’d make sausages down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And Vito grew food in the backyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Janine Dictor: Ah, garden, this master gardener with this beautiful, extensive garden that he used to cook these delicious Italian meals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This was a happy time. But it didn’t last. By the time Johanne was a teenager in the early ’60s, one topic started to dominate their family dinners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> I remember, you know, be sitting at the table and they’d say, you know, they’re, they’re gonna take my house, they say we have to sell it. And we have to leave everything here, and you know, they just were devastated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Ultimately, the Campilongos sold their house to BART and moved to San Leandro. Her grandfather planted a new garden, but it was never as big or as beautiful as the one in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> He’d sit on the porch like in San Leandro looking so sad, you know, (cries)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Johanne’s daughter, Janine, grew up with this family story. But she has always thought it was odd that they didn’t know more about how it all went down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> How many properties were acquired? Did anybody challenge, you know, Bart’s ability to acquire their property? What was the outcome of that? Um, yeah, just there seems like there must, there must be a pretty robust story behind all of this. And it’s just odd that we never have known what, quite what it is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen Price, and today on Bay Curious the story of how families like the Campilongos were uprooted to make way for BART. Theirs is a common story — people have been displaced for large infrastructure projects time and time again all across the United States. And it’s still happening today. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Area Rapid Transit…better known as BART…is a fixture of life in the Bay Area today. But many families and businesses were displaced to build it. KQED reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman is going to help us understand how it all went down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In the early ’50s, the Bay Area, like much of the country, was in a post-war building boom. New houses were going up all over the region in places like Concord and Fremont. And a big question was how folks would get around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of BART promo reel\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> State lawmakers began planning for a regional transportation system to connect the suburbs to the economic hubs of Oakland and San Francisco. There was a lot of excitement … which you can hear in this promotional video for BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BART promo reel:\u003c/strong>…To do this by weaving into the fabric of the Bay Area an entirely new and vastly better way of getting around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In 1962, voters in Alameda, Contra Costa, and San Francisco counties approved a nearly 800 million dollar bond to build the new tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BART promo reel:\u003c/strong>… Locations of lines and stations was the first step in the long planning process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: But BART needed land, including in residential areas where property was already owned and inhabited by people. The Campilongos neighborhood in North Oakland was one of those areas; another was West Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: When I was a girl, there were… So 7th Street and all of West Oakland was predominantly black, owned by black people. Beautiful old Victorians were there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Maxine Ussery was born in Oakland in 1939. Her family, like many Black families at the time, had come from the South in search of work and a better life. Maxine’s mother and father made the journey from Louisiana and settled in West Oakland. They found jobs at the nearby Naval Shipyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: They had no problems understanding that they had to, in fact, develop their own businesses, their own services, because that’s how they lived in the South.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: She says the West Oakland community had everything they needed…drug stores, groceries, restaurants, churches, doctors and lawyers. But starting in the 1950s, successive government infrastructure projects ripped apart the fabric of this community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: They forced people to move.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Government agencies demolished homes and businesses for the Nimitz Freeway in the ’50s. Then, in the following decades, they cleared more buildings to make way for Oakland’s Main Post Office and the Acorn housing projects. And then, there was BART. The Oakland Planning Department estimates that upwards of 5,000 units of housing were destroyed in West Oakland in the 1960s alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: It was like a disbursement of a, of a whole group of a whole community, not just, uh, taking the buildings, it was taking people and who had lived there and who, uh, uh, teachers, um, uh, uh, educate, you know, people who were athletes, all of them were displaced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Maxine says the effect on the community was disastrous, especially for the older folks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: They were up in age, and they were moved into areas where they, that where they could afford to go with the money they were given for BART, which was not a lot. It wasn’t enough money for them to live on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Many of the infrastructure projects in West Oakland that Maxine talks about were only possible because of a legal tool known as eminent domain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: So that’s the part of the Constitution that gives government the power to come along and take people’s private property even if they don’t consent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Radhika Rao is a professor of Law at UC San Francisco College of the Law. Eminent domain allows public agencies to buy private property at “fair market value” in order to build infrastructure that is in the public interest. Think hospitals, Public Schools, Highways, Parks, and train tracks. Radhika says without it, infrastructure projects like these might never get built.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: Because you could have one private property owner who says, my house stands in the way; you can’t build a highway. And then we have no highway. So, our infrastructure depends upon government having this power. It’s, it’s super important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: But Rhadika says government agencies often target areas with lower property values because they cost less.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: Of course! That’s, that just makes economic sense, right? Why would government situate your infrastructure in a place where you have to pay more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> And the government has a long history of undervaluing properties where people of color and low-income people live and work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: And then there are also political reasons, you know, which communities have power, um, and which communities don’t, to organize against this kind of action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: The 1960 census reveals the parts of West Oakland hit hardest by eminent domain projects were highly segregated … as much as 95% Black … with annual incomes far lower than the city average. The neighborhood in North Oakland that the Campilongos lived in had a higher median income but was also predominantly Black. Rhadika says these communities were vulnerable to eminent domain action and less likely to fight back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: Who has the money to hire a lawyer and go to court saying this, the compensation that you’re offering me is not just compensation? It’s not fair market value.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> BART records show that the agency acquired approximately 2,200 properties in order to build its first 75 miles of track. Some people sold their parcels to BART willingly, but others had to be evicted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip of news report: \u003c/strong>This is Seventh Street on Oakland’s west side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In this KPIX news report from 1967, BART staff are evicting an elderly Black woman named Leitha Blick from the thrift store she owns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News report:\u003c/strong> An admittedly blighted area, directly in the path of proposed Bay Area Rapid Transit District construction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> That word — blighted — is important. It’s a term that was used by urban redevelopment agencies throughout the country — including in Oakland — to describe neighborhoods that were seen as deteriorating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News report:\u003c/strong> Most of the homes and businesses in this area will have to be destroyed to make room for progress, and the push of progress is not always gentle. Angry and confused, many of the residents say they can’t buy new homes with the market value prices given them for the ones they now live in. Business people face the same dilemma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In the news clip, Blick stands by with her arms crossed as workers pack her things into boxes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News report footage:\u003c/strong> Miss Blick, had you and the Bay Area Rapid Transit District reached any agreement before this happened?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Blick:\u003c/strong> No.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>News reporter:\u003c/strong> Why?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Blick:\u003c/strong> Because, uh, the price wasn’t satisfactory.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>News reporter:\u003c/strong> You didn’t think they were offering you enough money for your merchandise?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Blick:\u003c/strong> That’s correct. Moving us out, and we had no place to go, and I didn’t think they were offering enough, no way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> Blick tried to stop BART from taking her property…but ultimately lost. But there are some examples of people successfully altering BART’s plan.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nDocumentary footage:\u003c/strong> Berkeley was basically a segregated city. So, the whole of South Berkeley was pretty much a black neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>Pam Uzzell’s documentary “Welcome to the Neighborhood” chronicles one effort in Berkeley. It profiles Mable Howard, who argued that BART’s plan to put raised tracks through part of the city would divide it along racial lines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Documentary footage: \u003c/strong>A woman who said, I won’t have The city of Berkeley, divided in half, there won’t be any other side of the tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In 1966, Berkeley voters approved a tax that would pay to put BART completely underground in Berkeley. But BART proposed a design for Ashby station that was slightly above ground. So Mable Howard teamed up with Ron Dellums, then a city council member, to sue the agency. Here’s a lawyer on the case, Matthew Weinberg.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Weinberg:\u003c/strong> We won the case. How do we know we won the case? Go to Berkeley. You’ll see the whole thing’s underground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>BART acknowledges this legacy of displacement and struggle. Here’s Chief Communications Officer Alicia Trost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alicia Trost: \u003c/strong>There was a lot of generational wealth that was deeply impacted, if not destroyed, because of the building of the BART system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> BART now has an office of civil rights, and other equity initiatives that Trost says are critical to rebuilding trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alicia Trost:\u003c/strong> And especially when we’re building on our land, uh, we want to make sure there’s a carve-out specifically for affordable housing and that we are in a daily conversation with the community to make sure what we’re building is something that they want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> As the agency imagines building a possible second transbay tube, Trost says they’re also developing anti-displacement goals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alicia Trost:\u003c/strong> Which, if that’s not lessons learned, you know, I don’t know what is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> I’ve gone through multiple public records requests and dozens of deeds, right-of-way contracts, and insurance policies for this story. At the end of it all, I paid another visit to Janine, our question-asker, and her mom, Johanne. I had something for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, talking to the Dictors:\u003c/strong> I actually found the contract that your grandparents signed with Bart, so here it is. And so this, you can see, like it says right-of-way contract, and it has your grandparents’ names on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Oh, is that all they, so it was just 25,000. Is that right? Oh my God. Oh my gosh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman talking to the Dictors:\u003c/strong> We’re looking at the original contract between Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo and the Bay Area Rapid Transportation District, dated Sept. 2, 1965.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> And it looks like my grandmother’s handwriting, too, actually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Oh, it does?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> It shows the Campilongos agreed to sell their property for $25,000. Adjusted for inflation, that’s about 245,000 dollars today. These days, homes go for around a million in that neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> Doesn’t it look like Nana’s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Not really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor: \u003c/strong>That floral?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Yeah, a little bit, but hers was, yeah, she had a good penmanship, Nana. Yeah,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> Janine and Johanne are excited to see the physical evidence of their family history. But after the initial excitement, the mood is somber.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> Going through this process, it’s like you realize it’s like about a lot more than what they were compensated, right? It’s about the fact that they were forced into this, that they lost a lifestyle, that they lost a community, you know. So, even if they got a good price, it’s kind of like, there’s still something to mourn there right about their experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> The word progress comes up a lot when talking about these kinds of projects. The idea is that progress, the greater good, justifies the sacrifice some families have to make. But for families like the Dictors, progress could feel like a step in the wrong direction. Here’s Johanne.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor: \u003c/strong>After we lost that house, we lost the sense of our family in a way, it seemed like. It was kind of driven apart. Because that house really brought us together. More than the house in San Leandro, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> Public infrastructure is often seen as a kind of equalizer … it’s something we all pay for and that anyone can use. But the fact is … some people had to pay more than others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was KQED reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman.The use of eminent domain led to the displacement in some of the stories we explored today. It was often used to displace communities of color to make way for various infrastructure projects around the state. As part of its reparations efforts, California is now considering a bill that would compensate people if they can prove racism or discrimination prevented them from getting just compensation. To learn more about California’s reparations efforts, check out KQED’s coverage at KQED dot org slash reparations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special Thanks to Pam Uzzell for allowing us to use clips from her documentary “Welcome to the Neighborhood” in this story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>This episode was edited by Katrina Schwartz.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Produced by Olivia Allen-Price.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Tamuna Chkareuli:\u003c/strong> Tamuna Chkareuli\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Pauline Bartolone\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Christopher Beale:\u003c/strong> And Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We get additional support from:\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Jen Chien:\u003c/strong> Jen Chien\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Katie Sprenger:\u003c/strong> Katie Sprenger\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Cesar Saldaña:\u003c/strong> Cesar Saldaña\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Maha Sanad\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/strong> Xorje Olivares:\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And the whole KQED family. Have a great week, everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Building the BART system in the 1960s required thousands of parcels of land. Decades later, memories of the homes and communities that were destroyed remain strong","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1715965297,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":141,"wordCount":4872},"headData":{"title":"When BART Was Built, People — and Houses — Had to Go | KQED","description":"Building the BART system in the 1960s required thousands of parcels of land. Decades later, memories of the homes and communities that were destroyed remain strong","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"When BART Was Built, People — and Houses — Had to Go","datePublished":"2024-05-16T03:00:27-07:00","dateModified":"2024-05-17T10:01:37-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC5722041302.mp3?updated=1715818705","sticky":false,"nprStoryId":"kqed-11986396","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11986396/when-bart-was-built-people-and-houses-had-to-go","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in the early 1960s, when BART was just a sketch on a map, planners with the young transit agency had a task in front of them. BART had to acquire around 2,200 parcels of land in order to build the transportation system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Exactly how the agency went about getting that land was something that always puzzled Janine Dictor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For her, the question was also personal. Growing up, her family would tell stories about an amazing house her great-grandparents used to own in North Oakland, at 59th, and what is now Martin Luther King Jr. Way (it was called Grove Street back then). But the stories always ended with how they had to sell their home to BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>“There was always a sad tone to the story as if they didn’t have control over it,” Dictor said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dictor’s great-grandparents, Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo, loved that house. They were both immigrants from Italy, and they kept the house full of family, friends and good food. Vito tended a bountiful garden in the backyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My grandmother loved to cook in the basement,” said Johanne Dictor, Janine’s mother. “She had this great kitchen downstairs where she made her ravioli; she made her sausages with her women friends.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a happy time, but it didn’t last. By the time Johanne was a teenager in the early ‘60s, one topic started to dominate their family dinners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remember we’d be sitting at the table and they’d say, ‘They’re going to take my house, they say we have to sell it. And we have to leave everything here.’ And you know, they just were devastated,” said Johanne about her grandparents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ultimately, the Campilongos sold their house to BART and moved to San Leandro. Her grandfather planted a new garden, but he felt it was never as big or as beautiful as the one in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He’d sit on the porch in San Leandro looking so sad,” remembers Johanne.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All this history left Janine wondering how exactly the sale of her great-grandparents’ house went down. So she asked KQED’s Bay Curious to look into how much property BART acquired at the time of its inception and whether any homeowners challenged the agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There must be a pretty robust story behind all of this, and it’s just odd that we never have known quite what it is,” Janine said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986429\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1384px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2024/05/16/when-bart-was-built-people-and-houses-had-to-go/vito_elizabeth_family/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11986429\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986429\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family.png\" alt=\"An old black-and-white photo of a family in their living room\" width=\"1384\" height=\"1020\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family.png 1384w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family-800x590.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family-1020x752.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family-160x118.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1384px) 100vw, 1384px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo (center) left their North Oakland home in the 1960s to make room for a BART line. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Campilongo family)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>And so BART begins\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Like much of the country in the early 1950s, the Bay Area was in a post-war building boom. New houses were going up all over the region, in places like Concord and Fremont. City planners had to figure out how folks would get around and travel between all these developments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State lawmakers began \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=San_Francisco_Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit_Commission%E2%80%94The_Beginnings\">mapping out\u003c/a> a regional transportation system to connect the suburbs to the economic hubs of Oakland and San Francisco. In 1957, they passed a bill creating the Bay Area Rapid Transit District.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But BART needed land, including in residential areas where property was already owned and inhabited by people. As an entity charged with building public infrastructure, BART was given the power of eminent domain, a legal tool that helped it acquire the needed property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Radhika Rao, a professor at UC San Francisco College of the Law, eminent domain allows the government to take people’s property “even if they don’t consent,” as long as it pays them fair market value for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eminent domain is an important tool for governments, said Rao, because infrastructure projects like hospitals, public schools, highways, parks and train tracks might never be built without it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Because you could have one private property owner who says, ‘My house stands in the way, you can’t build a highway,’ and then we have no highway. So our infrastructure depends upon government having this power,” Rao said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, Rao says, historically, the use of eminent domain in California has disproportionately affected low-income people and communities of color.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"‘That just makes economic sense, right? Why would government situate your infrastructure in a place where you have to pay more?’","name":"pullquote","attributes":{"named":{"size":"medium","align":"right","citation":"Radhika Rao, UC San Francisco College of Law","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>One reason, she said, is that government agencies often use eminent domain in areas with lower property values since it costs them less to acquire that property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That just makes economic sense, right? Why would government situate your infrastructure in a place where you have to pay more?” Rao said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another reason for the disproportionate impact, suggests Rao, is that government officials choose to develop areas where residents are less likely to organize against them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Who has the money to hire a lawyer and go to court saying, ‘the compensation that you’re offering me is not fair market value?’ Rao said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>West Oakland residents displaced\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>One of the places in the Bay Area hit hardest by eminent domain projects — including, but not limited to, BART construction — was West Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maxine Willis Ussery was born in Shreveport, Louisiana in 1939, but her family moved to West Oakland when she was just a few years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I was a girl, Seventh Street and all of West Oakland was predominantly Black, owned by Black people. Beautiful old Victorians were there,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her family, like many Black families at the time, had come from the South in search of work and a better life. Her mother and father made the journey from Louisiana and settled in West Oakland. They found jobs at the nearby Naval shipyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They had no problems understanding that they had to develop their own businesses, their own services because that’s how they lived in the South,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She says the West Oakland community had everything they needed: drug stores, groceries, restaurants, churches, doctors, and lawyers. But starting in the 1950s, successive government infrastructure projects ripped apart the fabric of this community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>First, government agencies demolished homes and businesses for the Nimitz Freeway (Interstate 880) in the 1950s. Then, in the following decades, they cleared more buildings to make way for the Oakland Main Post Office and the Acorn housing projects. And then, \u003ca href=\"https://diva.sfsu.edu/collections/sfbatv/bundles/232778\">there was BART\u003c/a>. The Oakland Planning Department estimates that between 5,100 and 9,700 housing units were lost in West Oakland in the 1960s alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was like a dispersement of a whole community, not just taking the buildings, it was taking people who had lived there. Teachers, athletes, all of them were displaced,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The effect on the community was disastrous, she said, especially for the older folks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They were up in age, and they were moved into areas where they could afford to go with the money they were given for BART, which was not a lot,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A KQED analysis of the 1960 census reveals that the West Oakland census tracts hardest hit by eminent domain were where people of color lived — in some areas, as many as 95% of the residents were Black. Annual incomes in the development zones were also far lower than the city average. The neighborhood in North Oakland where the Campilongos lived had a higher median income but was also predominantly Black.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986231\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/240514-eminentdomain-25-bl-kqed/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986231\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A BART train above two streets intersecting\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A BART train runs along the tracks at 59th Street and Martin Luther King Jr Way in Oakland on May 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Berkeley residents resist BART plans\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Some East Bay residents, such as Mable Howard of Berkeley, successfully altered BART’s path.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Howard argued that BART’s plan to construct raised tracks through part of the city would further divide it along racial lines. Her legal challenge was highlighted in the documentary “\u003ca href=\"https://video.kqed.org/video/welcome-to-the-neighborhood-truly-ca-zag6fb/\">Welcome to the Neighborhood\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the documentary explains, in 1966, Berkeley voters approved a tax that would pay to put BART completely underground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But BART proposed a design for the Ashby station that was slightly above ground. Howard felt that the design would further segregate the city. She teamed up with the late East Bay politician Ron Dellums, then a city council member, to successfully sue the agency to underground all their Berkeley infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We won the case. How do we know we won the case? Go to Berkeley. You’ll see the whole thing’s underground,” said attorney Matthew Weinberg in the film.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>BART spokesperson: ‘Lessons learned’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>These days, it is hard to imagine a Bay Area without BART. People from all over the Bay Area make millions of trips on it every month. Even the aerial tracks that tower over Martin Luther King Jr. Way, where the Campilongo house used to stand, seem to blend into the background of freeways and buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART’s Chief Communications Officer Alicia Trost says it’s still important for the agency to acknowledge the past harms that the agency committed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There was a lot of generational wealth that was deeply impacted, if not destroyed, because of the building of the BART system,” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART now has an Office of Civil Rights and other equity initiatives that Trost says are critical to rebuilding trust with the community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"‘There was a lot of generational wealth that was deeply impacted if not destroyed because of the building of the BART system.’","name":"pullquote","attributes":{"named":{"size":"medium","align":"right","citation":"Alicia Trost, BART","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Especially when we’re building on our land, we want to make sure there’s a carve-out specifically for affordable housing and that we are in a daily conversation with the community to make sure what we’re building is something that they want,” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the agency imagines future development, like building a possible second transbay tube between San Francisco and Oakland, she says they’re also developing plans to prevent the displacement of residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trost said the uprooting of residents to create BART in the 1960s provided “lessons learned,” and mistakes that shouldn’t be repeated were made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State leaders are also looking at the long-term impact that eminent domain property transfers have had on families and communities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California State Senator Steven Bradford, a member of California’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/reparations\">Reparations Task Force\u003c/a>, introduced a bill in February that would compensate former property owners if their parcel was taken through eminent domain, but they didn’t receive just compensation due to racism or discrimination by the government.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The price the Campilongos paid\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986413\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2024/05/16/when-bart-was-built-people-and-houses-had-to-go/campilongo_contract_page_01/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11986413\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11986413\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-800x1032.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"1032\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-800x1032.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-1020x1316.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-160x206.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-1190x1536.jpg 1190w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-1587x2048.jpg 1587w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01.jpg 1701w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The contract the Campilongos signed with BART.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A public records request submitted by KQED reveals that the Bay Area Rapid Transit District paid Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo $25,000 for their property in North Oakland on Sept. 2, 1965. Adjusted for inflation, that’s about $245,000 today. These days, homes go for around $1 million in that neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Janine and Johanne Dictor were excited to see the contract their relatives signed with BART, the physical evidence of their family history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Doesn’t that look like Nana’s handwriting?” Janine asked her mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But after the initial excitement, the mood turned somber.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s about a lot more than what they were compensated,” Janine said. “It’s about the fact that they were forced into this, that they lost a lifestyle, that they lost a community,”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The premise of using eminent domain is that individual sacrifices are warranted to build public infrastructure. However, for families like the Dictors, the construction of BART was a painful turn in their history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“After we lost that house, we lost the sense of our family in a way. It was kind of driven apart,” her mom, Johanne, added. “That house really brought us together.”\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>\u003cbr>\nSpecial thanks to Pam Uzzell for providing parts of her documentary “Welcome to the Neighborhood” and to KQED’s Dan Brekke for reporting support and data analysis. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of BART\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Johanne Dictor points at the grassy median dividing the six lanes of Martin Luther King Junior Way in North Oakland. An elevated BART track towers overhead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> I guess my grandmother’s house was right here on the, the tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Johanne’s grandparents, Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo were immigrants from Italy. They loved their home on what was then 59th and Grove street in Oakland … Grove is Martin Luther King Jr Way these days. They kept the house full of family, friends and, as is the Italian way … good food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> So she, she had this great kitchen downstairs where she made her ravioli. She made her sausages with her women friends. They’d come over, and all day, they’d make sausages down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And Vito grew food in the backyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Janine Dictor: Ah, garden, this master gardener with this beautiful, extensive garden that he used to cook these delicious Italian meals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This was a happy time. But it didn’t last. By the time Johanne was a teenager in the early ’60s, one topic started to dominate their family dinners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> I remember, you know, be sitting at the table and they’d say, you know, they’re, they’re gonna take my house, they say we have to sell it. And we have to leave everything here, and you know, they just were devastated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Ultimately, the Campilongos sold their house to BART and moved to San Leandro. Her grandfather planted a new garden, but it was never as big or as beautiful as the one in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> He’d sit on the porch like in San Leandro looking so sad, you know, (cries)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Johanne’s daughter, Janine, grew up with this family story. But she has always thought it was odd that they didn’t know more about how it all went down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> How many properties were acquired? Did anybody challenge, you know, Bart’s ability to acquire their property? What was the outcome of that? Um, yeah, just there seems like there must, there must be a pretty robust story behind all of this. And it’s just odd that we never have known what, quite what it is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen Price, and today on Bay Curious the story of how families like the Campilongos were uprooted to make way for BART. Theirs is a common story — people have been displaced for large infrastructure projects time and time again all across the United States. And it’s still happening today. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Area Rapid Transit…better known as BART…is a fixture of life in the Bay Area today. But many families and businesses were displaced to build it. KQED reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman is going to help us understand how it all went down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In the early ’50s, the Bay Area, like much of the country, was in a post-war building boom. New houses were going up all over the region in places like Concord and Fremont. And a big question was how folks would get around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of BART promo reel\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> State lawmakers began planning for a regional transportation system to connect the suburbs to the economic hubs of Oakland and San Francisco. There was a lot of excitement … which you can hear in this promotional video for BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BART promo reel:\u003c/strong>…To do this by weaving into the fabric of the Bay Area an entirely new and vastly better way of getting around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In 1962, voters in Alameda, Contra Costa, and San Francisco counties approved a nearly 800 million dollar bond to build the new tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BART promo reel:\u003c/strong>… Locations of lines and stations was the first step in the long planning process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: But BART needed land, including in residential areas where property was already owned and inhabited by people. The Campilongos neighborhood in North Oakland was one of those areas; another was West Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: When I was a girl, there were… So 7th Street and all of West Oakland was predominantly black, owned by black people. Beautiful old Victorians were there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Maxine Ussery was born in Oakland in 1939. Her family, like many Black families at the time, had come from the South in search of work and a better life. Maxine’s mother and father made the journey from Louisiana and settled in West Oakland. They found jobs at the nearby Naval Shipyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: They had no problems understanding that they had to, in fact, develop their own businesses, their own services, because that’s how they lived in the South.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: She says the West Oakland community had everything they needed…drug stores, groceries, restaurants, churches, doctors and lawyers. But starting in the 1950s, successive government infrastructure projects ripped apart the fabric of this community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: They forced people to move.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Government agencies demolished homes and businesses for the Nimitz Freeway in the ’50s. Then, in the following decades, they cleared more buildings to make way for Oakland’s Main Post Office and the Acorn housing projects. And then, there was BART. The Oakland Planning Department estimates that upwards of 5,000 units of housing were destroyed in West Oakland in the 1960s alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: It was like a disbursement of a, of a whole group of a whole community, not just, uh, taking the buildings, it was taking people and who had lived there and who, uh, uh, teachers, um, uh, uh, educate, you know, people who were athletes, all of them were displaced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Maxine says the effect on the community was disastrous, especially for the older folks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: They were up in age, and they were moved into areas where they, that where they could afford to go with the money they were given for BART, which was not a lot. It wasn’t enough money for them to live on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Many of the infrastructure projects in West Oakland that Maxine talks about were only possible because of a legal tool known as eminent domain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: So that’s the part of the Constitution that gives government the power to come along and take people’s private property even if they don’t consent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Radhika Rao is a professor of Law at UC San Francisco College of the Law. Eminent domain allows public agencies to buy private property at “fair market value” in order to build infrastructure that is in the public interest. Think hospitals, Public Schools, Highways, Parks, and train tracks. Radhika says without it, infrastructure projects like these might never get built.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: Because you could have one private property owner who says, my house stands in the way; you can’t build a highway. And then we have no highway. So, our infrastructure depends upon government having this power. It’s, it’s super important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: But Rhadika says government agencies often target areas with lower property values because they cost less.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: Of course! That’s, that just makes economic sense, right? Why would government situate your infrastructure in a place where you have to pay more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> And the government has a long history of undervaluing properties where people of color and low-income people live and work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: And then there are also political reasons, you know, which communities have power, um, and which communities don’t, to organize against this kind of action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: The 1960 census reveals the parts of West Oakland hit hardest by eminent domain projects were highly segregated … as much as 95% Black … with annual incomes far lower than the city average. The neighborhood in North Oakland that the Campilongos lived in had a higher median income but was also predominantly Black. Rhadika says these communities were vulnerable to eminent domain action and less likely to fight back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: Who has the money to hire a lawyer and go to court saying this, the compensation that you’re offering me is not just compensation? It’s not fair market value.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> BART records show that the agency acquired approximately 2,200 properties in order to build its first 75 miles of track. Some people sold their parcels to BART willingly, but others had to be evicted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip of news report: \u003c/strong>This is Seventh Street on Oakland’s west side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In this KPIX news report from 1967, BART staff are evicting an elderly Black woman named Leitha Blick from the thrift store she owns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News report:\u003c/strong> An admittedly blighted area, directly in the path of proposed Bay Area Rapid Transit District construction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> That word — blighted — is important. It’s a term that was used by urban redevelopment agencies throughout the country — including in Oakland — to describe neighborhoods that were seen as deteriorating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News report:\u003c/strong> Most of the homes and businesses in this area will have to be destroyed to make room for progress, and the push of progress is not always gentle. Angry and confused, many of the residents say they can’t buy new homes with the market value prices given them for the ones they now live in. Business people face the same dilemma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In the news clip, Blick stands by with her arms crossed as workers pack her things into boxes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News report footage:\u003c/strong> Miss Blick, had you and the Bay Area Rapid Transit District reached any agreement before this happened?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Blick:\u003c/strong> No.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>News reporter:\u003c/strong> Why?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Blick:\u003c/strong> Because, uh, the price wasn’t satisfactory.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>News reporter:\u003c/strong> You didn’t think they were offering you enough money for your merchandise?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Blick:\u003c/strong> That’s correct. Moving us out, and we had no place to go, and I didn’t think they were offering enough, no way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> Blick tried to stop BART from taking her property…but ultimately lost. But there are some examples of people successfully altering BART’s plan.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nDocumentary footage:\u003c/strong> Berkeley was basically a segregated city. So, the whole of South Berkeley was pretty much a black neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>Pam Uzzell’s documentary “Welcome to the Neighborhood” chronicles one effort in Berkeley. It profiles Mable Howard, who argued that BART’s plan to put raised tracks through part of the city would divide it along racial lines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Documentary footage: \u003c/strong>A woman who said, I won’t have The city of Berkeley, divided in half, there won’t be any other side of the tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In 1966, Berkeley voters approved a tax that would pay to put BART completely underground in Berkeley. But BART proposed a design for Ashby station that was slightly above ground. So Mable Howard teamed up with Ron Dellums, then a city council member, to sue the agency. Here’s a lawyer on the case, Matthew Weinberg.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Weinberg:\u003c/strong> We won the case. How do we know we won the case? Go to Berkeley. You’ll see the whole thing’s underground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>BART acknowledges this legacy of displacement and struggle. Here’s Chief Communications Officer Alicia Trost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alicia Trost: \u003c/strong>There was a lot of generational wealth that was deeply impacted, if not destroyed, because of the building of the BART system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> BART now has an office of civil rights, and other equity initiatives that Trost says are critical to rebuilding trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alicia Trost:\u003c/strong> And especially when we’re building on our land, uh, we want to make sure there’s a carve-out specifically for affordable housing and that we are in a daily conversation with the community to make sure what we’re building is something that they want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> As the agency imagines building a possible second transbay tube, Trost says they’re also developing anti-displacement goals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alicia Trost:\u003c/strong> Which, if that’s not lessons learned, you know, I don’t know what is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> I’ve gone through multiple public records requests and dozens of deeds, right-of-way contracts, and insurance policies for this story. At the end of it all, I paid another visit to Janine, our question-asker, and her mom, Johanne. I had something for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, talking to the Dictors:\u003c/strong> I actually found the contract that your grandparents signed with Bart, so here it is. And so this, you can see, like it says right-of-way contract, and it has your grandparents’ names on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Oh, is that all they, so it was just 25,000. Is that right? Oh my God. Oh my gosh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman talking to the Dictors:\u003c/strong> We’re looking at the original contract between Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo and the Bay Area Rapid Transportation District, dated Sept. 2, 1965.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> And it looks like my grandmother’s handwriting, too, actually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Oh, it does?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> It shows the Campilongos agreed to sell their property for $25,000. Adjusted for inflation, that’s about 245,000 dollars today. These days, homes go for around a million in that neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> Doesn’t it look like Nana’s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Not really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor: \u003c/strong>That floral?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Yeah, a little bit, but hers was, yeah, she had a good penmanship, Nana. Yeah,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> Janine and Johanne are excited to see the physical evidence of their family history. But after the initial excitement, the mood is somber.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> Going through this process, it’s like you realize it’s like about a lot more than what they were compensated, right? It’s about the fact that they were forced into this, that they lost a lifestyle, that they lost a community, you know. So, even if they got a good price, it’s kind of like, there’s still something to mourn there right about their experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> The word progress comes up a lot when talking about these kinds of projects. The idea is that progress, the greater good, justifies the sacrifice some families have to make. But for families like the Dictors, progress could feel like a step in the wrong direction. Here’s Johanne.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor: \u003c/strong>After we lost that house, we lost the sense of our family in a way, it seemed like. It was kind of driven apart. Because that house really brought us together. More than the house in San Leandro, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> Public infrastructure is often seen as a kind of equalizer … it’s something we all pay for and that anyone can use. But the fact is … some people had to pay more than others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was KQED reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman.The use of eminent domain led to the displacement in some of the stories we explored today. It was often used to displace communities of color to make way for various infrastructure projects around the state. As part of its reparations efforts, California is now considering a bill that would compensate people if they can prove racism or discrimination prevented them from getting just compensation. To learn more about California’s reparations efforts, check out KQED’s coverage at KQED dot org slash reparations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special Thanks to Pam Uzzell for allowing us to use clips from her documentary “Welcome to the Neighborhood” in this story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>This episode was edited by Katrina Schwartz.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Produced by Olivia Allen-Price.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Tamuna Chkareuli:\u003c/strong> Tamuna Chkareuli\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Pauline Bartolone\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Christopher Beale:\u003c/strong> And Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We get additional support from:\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Jen Chien:\u003c/strong> Jen Chien\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Katie Sprenger:\u003c/strong> Katie Sprenger\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Cesar Saldaña:\u003c/strong> Cesar Saldaña\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Maha Sanad\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/strong> Xorje Olivares:\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And the whole KQED family. Have a great week, everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11986396/when-bart-was-built-people-and-houses-had-to-go","authors":["11785"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_8"],"tags":["news_269","news_30652","news_1764","news_2318"],"featImg":"news_11986229","label":"news_33523"},"news_11985359":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11985359","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"news","id":"11985359","score":null,"sort":[1715248822000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"inside-sutro-baths-san-franciscos-once-grand-bathing-palace","title":"Inside Sutro Baths, San Francisco's Once Grand Bathing Palace","publishDate":1715248822,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Inside Sutro Baths, San Francisco’s Once Grand Bathing Palace | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Standing at the Lands’ End parking lot, overlooking the ruins of Sutro Baths, it feels like the edge of the world. To the left, Point Lobos Road winds down towards the straight stretch of Ocean Beach, past the Cliff House restaurant perched atop an overlook. And out in front is the wild Pacific Ocean, crashing against a man-made seawall stretching across the bottom of the cove. A faint outline of square pools can still be seen, but it looks more like a playland for the ducks and cormorants than a place humans would want to swim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s hard to tell now, but Sutro Baths was \u003ci>the place to be\u003c/i> at the turn of the 19th century. Seven massive baths were built into the cove, each filled with seawater and heated to different temperatures. A beautiful glass pavilion covered the pools to shield swimmers from the wind and fog. So, what happened to the grand establishment? How did it go from a glittering bathing palace to wild ruins?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To understand the history of Sutro Baths, we first need to learn about the man for whom they are named — Adolph Sutro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985364\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985364\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut.jpg\" alt=\"A black cormorant spreads its wings on the remnants of a wall. The ocean crashes in the distance.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Seagulls, cormorants and ducks have made the remnants of the Sutro Baths their home now. The ruins are a beautiful place to explore and imagine what once stood here. \u003ccite>(Tamuna Chkareuli/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>A self-made man\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Born in 1830, Adolph Sutro was a German Jewish immigrant to San Francisco. He arrived in 1850, at the height of the Gold Rush, and set up a shop selling dry goods — mostly tobacco. When news of a silver deposit in Nevada hit the newspapers, he dropped everything and headed out to work on the Comstock Lode. First, he ran a refining mill but kept thinking about one of mining’s biggest problems — surface water. It would seep down from above, sometimes drowning miners deep below the earth’s surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985371\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 394px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985371\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/adolph-sutro-cropped.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white portrait of a white man with white hair and mutton chops whiskers.\" width=\"394\" height=\"444\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/adolph-sutro-cropped.jpg 394w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/adolph-sutro-cropped-160x180.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 394px) 100vw, 394px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Adolph Sutro, 1830–98. He served as mayor of San Francisco from 1895–97. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A143030?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=50b41f01b154203e6a0f&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=0\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Sutro’s solution was to build a big tunnel that would carry water away from workers, making the conditions much safer. He opened his Sutro Tunnel in 1878 to much acclaim. Not only did it make mining safer, but it also offered an easier way to extract the silver ore and offered another escape route for miners in an emergency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He was able to eventually patent this and became kind of a mythical figure among the silver miners in that part of Nevada,” said Hector Falero, a former education manager for the Golden Gate National Recreation Area, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/upload/sutro_history.pdf\">the National Park that manages the Sutro Baths site now\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutro returned to San Francisco a rich man and began investing in real estate. He loved the “Outside Lands” at the far western edge of the city, \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=How_Many_Cliff_Houses%3F\">near the Cliff House\u003c/a>, and bought close to 22 acres of oceanfront property overlooking a nearby cove. He built his mansion there at Sutro Heights and began planning for a grand attraction in the cove itself. Just a few years later, he also bought the Cliff House and started planning to redesign it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985365\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985365\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house.png\" alt=\"Black and white photo of a massive Victorian-era structure perched on a cliff overlooking the ocean.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">After purchasing the Cliff House, Sutro rebuilt it in grand style. Soon after it opened, a fire destroyed it. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A129779?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=6afb3a4aaad152445a8c&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=5\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Building Sutro Baths\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before Sutro got hold of it, the cove below the Cliff House was a quiet little beach surrounded by steep cliffs. Sutro was fascinated by marine life and loved watching sea lions play on the rocks. Legend has it, that’s what gave him the idea of creating an aquarium in the cove. He first built a circular pool on the northwest end that would be filled by seawater rushing in from a large tunnel he bore through the rock. He planned to fill the aquarium pool with ocean water and sea creatures — like a man-made tidepool — and then, as the water gradually seeped through a drainage canal he built, the sea creatures would be left behind and easy to view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The tunnel and pool worked so well that Sutro kept building. He refocused his efforts on building an attraction for saltwater swimming, which was booming in popularity. The round aquarium pool became a settling tank, a place for any sediment from the ocean water to separate out. He added a seawall to protect the cove from the waves and built a massive swimming pool across the entire cove. It was subdivided into seven pools, each holding water of a different temperature. Cold seawater would rush through the tunnel, past a boiler house where it would mix with very hot water, and then stream down through the various pools, getting cooler as it went. The largest pool was the coldest — the temperature of the sea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985373\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985373\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-interior-baths-OpenSF.jpg\" alt=\"Huge glass and steel structure covers a bathing facility with seven pools.\" width=\"700\" height=\"549\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-interior-baths-OpenSF.jpg 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-interior-baths-OpenSF-160x125.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Inside Sutro Baths circa 1910 looking north towards the promenade. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://opensfhistory.org/Display/wnp4/wnp4.0211.jpg\">OpenSFHistory / wnp4/wnp4.0211\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A prospectus from the San Francisco-based Floating Sea-Bath Company touted the positive effects of seawater bathing:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>\u003ci>Pleasure is an essential item of the real bath, and among the most active of its beneficial forces. There can be no doubt that a great number of our citizens would seek to enjoy the tonic effects of sea bathing, but for the low temperatures of the water.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>Sutro solved that problem. And he didn’t stop there. He built a massive pavilion over the baths to protect swimmers from cold sea air and fog. Made of iron girders, wood and glass, it was a giant white building with a 3-acre footprint. Visitors entered from above, off Point Lobos Avenue, and descended a grand stairway to the baths below.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutro Baths wasn’t just a swimming facility — it was a place to be seen. There were several levels to stop and promenade, restaurants, bars, and a museum of curios Sutro had collected while traveling all over the world, including some rare mummies. For 25 cents, visitors could enter the baths, rent a bathing suit and towel, use the changing rooms and swim all day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o4JS0d_qyY\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutro knew getting people out to his new attraction would be challenging since the neighborhoods near Golden Gate Park were not built up yet, and most people lived much further east. So, he waged war with the railroad companies to keep the streetcar fares low, enabling the average working person to afford a visit to the baths. This egalitarian fight won him a lot of goodwill with San Franciscans, who eventually elected him mayor in 1895. For a while, there was even a train that went along the cliff at Lands’ End, offering spectacular views of the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qgapRWmiUY\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cb>Sutro Baths officially open in 1896\u003c/b>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>After more than a decade of construction, the baths officially opened in 1896. They were an immediate hit. The space was big enough for an orchestra to play, and Sutro regularly hosted large events at the baths. There were competitions, concerts and diving displays.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985382\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985382\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center.png\" alt=\"Black and white aerial view of the massive Sutro Baths pavilion.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An aerial view shows just how massive the baths and pavilion were when finished. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A130128?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=950123d10c91ec349686&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=2&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=8\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Site of an early civil rights lawsuit\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Sutro Baths advertised itself as a place for \u003ci>all San Franciscans\u003c/i> to enjoy the salubrious effects of sea bathing, but that wasn’t actually true.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On July 4, 1897, just a few months after the baths officially opened, John Harris, an African American waiter, paid to enter the baths with a group of his white friends. He was told he was not allowed to swim because of the color of his skin. A week later, he tried again and was once again rebuffed. So, he sued the Sutro family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To challenge the former mayor of San Francisco really took a lot of chutzpah, bravado,” said historian and writer Elaine Elinson. \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/john-harris-civil-rights.htm\">She researched John Harris’ story for the National Park Service. \u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a year before, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/john-harris-civil-rights.htm\">California passed the Dibble Civil Rights Act, the first of its kind in the state\u003c/a>, which made it illegal to discriminate in public places based on race. Harris used the new law to challenge his treatment at Sutro Baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985391\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 750px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985391\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/opensfhistory_wnp4_wnp4.0298.jpg\" alt=\"Large group of white swimmers in old fashioned swim suits.\" width=\"750\" height=\"601\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/opensfhistory_wnp4_wnp4.0298.jpg 750w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/opensfhistory_wnp4_wnp4.0298-160x128.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 750px) 100vw, 750px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A crowd of all-white swimmers at Sutro Baths, circa 1910. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://opensfhistory.org/Display/wnp4/wnp4.0298.jpg\">OpenSFHistory / wnp4/wnp4.0298\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A group of Black activists, known as the African American Assembly, supported Harris’ suit by paying his legal fees. They hoped this early test of the new civil rights law would give it teeth.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>A deeper history of Black activism in California\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Dibble Civil Rights Act was the result of many years of organizing by California’s Black residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of the people who ended up as civic leaders or church leaders were already highly experienced and skilled in the abolitionist movement,” said Susan Anderson, the history curator at the \u003ca href=\"https://caamuseum.org/\">African American Museum in Los Angeles\u003c/a>. She’s writing a book about how Black Californians have influenced civic culture and institutions going back to before statehood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was significant to Black people to have their rights enshrined,” Anderson said. “They worked together to influence Assembly Member [Henry Clay] Dibble to sponsor the Dibble Act, California’s first civil rights act, in 1896.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s likely Black activists wrote the law, Anderson said and lobbied other legislators to pass it. At a time when racist attitudes and policies limited Black Californians to only the most menial jobs — porters, waiters, clerks — this was a tremendous feat. Black people used the connections they made through these serving jobs to push the causes important to them, Anderson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8581019303&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So if you’re a porter or clerk in a court, and you’re an activist, you find comrades and allies and people you can network with who are powerful for your cause,” Anderson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She points out that the African American organizations of the time were very organized. Members across California met once a year to set their agenda, and then local chapters worked to implement them. Before California even became a state, they worked on issues like the right to vote, the right to testify in court, equal access to education and, of course, anti-discrimination laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the Dibble Civil Rights Law passed in 1896, local groups, like the African American Assembly Club in San Francisco, started testing the law. That’s what John Harris did at Sutro Baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“John Harris won his case, but he only earned $100 for the two times he was refused entrance to the baths,” said Elaine Elinson. “So it wasn’t a monetary victory, but it was a very, very important civil rights victory.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite this historic victory, very little changed at Sutro Baths. \u003ca href=\"http://www.outsidelands.org/sutro-baths-segregation.php\">It remained segregated in practice, if not by law\u003c/a>, until the Civil Rights era of the 1950s and ‘60s. There are cases of other non-white San Franciscans being denied entry, too, including members of the city’s large Chinese American community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is interesting to see that these cases [were] challenged and won, but often did not change public attitudes or public policy,” Elinson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Sutro Baths’ slow decline\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985394\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985394\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center.png\" alt=\"Black and white photo of cabanas with straw roofs inside a large glass pavilion.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Sutro family revamped the interior of the baths several times, including this tropical version circa 1935. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A130193?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=5c559fc2d23fe6107f55&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=5\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Adolph Sutro died just a few years after the baths officially opened in 1898. He was 68 years old and left Sutro Baths to his children. They continued to operate the site, even though it didn’t make much money. Sutro had sunk a lot of cash into constructing the grand facility, costing a fortune to run.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 1930s, when the Great Depression hit, many San Franciscans didn’t have the money for a leisure day out, and the baths began to fall into disrepair. Adolph Sutro’s grandson tried revamping the business in 1936 by covering some of the pools and building an ice skating rink. That was a popular move but it didn’t do enough to save the business. Eventually, in 1952, the Sutros announced they would close the facility. That’s when one of their competitors — George Whitney — swooped in and bought it for a bargain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JklqpaDdYX0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whitney owned \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11925112/idora-park-and-playland-at-the-beach-bay-area-amusement-parks-of-a-bygone-era\">Playland-at-the-Beach, a popular amusement park on Ocean Beach\u003c/a>. He thought he could squeeze a little more money out of Sutros and use the space to house his collection of mechanical oddities. But his family couldn’t make a go of it either and ended up selling the property to a developer who planned to build condominiums on the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutros finally closed for good in 1966. Just a few months later, a fire burned the grand structure to the ground. People from the neighborhood came out and watched the iconic building burn. The police suspected arson but could never prove it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985395\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985395\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center.png\" alt=\"Smoke billows from the skeleton of a building built on a cliff overlooking the ocean.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Sutro Baths pavilion burned to the ground in 1966. Neighbors came out to watch the iconic building burn. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A130156?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=2fad4a0f6ccdbd8148f8&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=6&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=14\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>About a decade later, the National Park Service bought the property for open space. The community didn’t want the park to build interpretive services at the site of the old baths, instead preferring its current state — a set of ruins that hearken back to a grand past but that are free and open for all to explore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of birds, distant waves crashing, people talking, wind\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> Wow. Okay, so I’ve been to this place a few times, but never on a day quite like today. It is a stunner out here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/b> Beautiful weather, perfect May day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Hey, everyone. Olivia Allen-Price here with Katrina Schwartz, producer extraordinaire of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Hello.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>And we are at Sutro Baths. So right at the entrance of Land’s End, the hiking trail, if you’ve done that. We’re looking at the Cliff House to our left, a long-time-running restaurant, currently not running, but hopefully will come back again soon. But down in this cove is really why we are here. There is something pretty interesting down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>It looks like a massive pool, except the edges of it are more like a pond with moss growing and ducks and seagulls. People are walking out on that retaining wall, but it has this air of mystery because you can tell something was once here, but now nature is reclaiming it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Today on Bay Curious, we’re going on a field trip to a spot many of you have been requesting over the years! We’ll learn why and how Sutro Baths were built, what visiting would have felt like back in the day, and while researching this story, we stumbled upon a lesser known piece of civil rights history — so we’ll be sharing that. This story first appeared in the Bay Curious book — available now wherever books are sold. We’re diving in — literally — just ahead on Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> San Francisco has a lot of historic places, many of which have been rebuilt or repurposed in modern ways. But the ruins of Sutro Baths remain wild and untouched. Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz brings us the story of the rise and fall of this iconic bathing palace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> To understand why these somewhat sparse ruins have captivated the imaginations of locals and visitors alike, we need to learn a bit more about the man behind them. Adolph Sutro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>He was born in Germany in 1830 to a Jewish family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Hector Falero is a former education manager for the Golden Gate Recreation Area — the National Park that manages the Sutro Baths site now. He says Sutro arrived in San Francisco as a young man in 1850, right as the Gold Rush was kicking off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>He’s living in San Francisco and mostly selling tobacco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Many of his customers were miners, and he learned as much as he could about the business. When news of a massive silver discovery in Nevada hit the papers, he decided to join the fray and try to make his fortune on the Comstock Lode. He first opened a refining mill, but he’d long been thinking about one of mining’s biggest problems — surface water. It would seep down, sometimes drowning miners. Adolph Sutro’s solution was to build a huge tunnel deep in the mine that ran downhill and carried water away from the workmen. The Sutro Tunnel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>He was able to eventually patent this and became kind of like a mythical figure among the silver miners in that part of Nevada.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutro made millions on his invention. He returned to San Francisco a rich man and began investing in real estate. He especially liked the wind-swept “Outside Lands” near the Pacific Ocean. Not many people lived out there yet, but Sutro wanted to change that. In 1881, he bought 22 acres of oceanfront property overlooking the Cliff House, which was already operating as an inn and restaurant. Sutro would buy the Cliff House just a few years later and incorporate it into his grand vision for the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>Where he saw a gap was in bathing or swimming.\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>In the late 1800s, most people lived crowded into boarding houses and rented rooms in downtown San Francisco. Saltwater swimming was all the rage, a welcome respite from these cramped interiors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>There was some sort of like concept of health associated with Pacific waters. But it’s very cold. And so the need that Adolfo Sutro saw was, hey, I would love to create some baths and I would love to create them to be sort of temperature controlled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutro put his engineering brain to work designing a series of pools and tunnels that would harness the tides to create a swimming facility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first problem to solve was how to bring seawater into a protected pool away from crashing ocean waves. So, Sutro did what he did best. He built a massive tunnel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>The water would rush in at high tide and be able to fill the pools almost instantly. This was one of the technological aspects that was incredible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>He demonstrated the system to reporters nearly a decade \u003ci>before\u003c/i> the baths would officially open. An article in the \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> reads:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice-over reads newspaper clipping: \u003c/b>At great expense, a tunnel was excavated, 8 feet high and 15 feet long, through the solid rock. It is through this tunnel that the water comes at extreme high tide and for about two hours before and after.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Over the next many years, Sutro transformed this quiet cove into a massive engineering project. He built a seawall across the entire span to keep the waves out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>He lined most of the cove with concrete.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Martini is the author of \u003ci>Sutro’s Glass Palace: The Story of Sutro Baths.\u003c/i> He presented his research to the San Francisco Historical Society.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>So he literally subdivided the cove into what he called swimming tanks. We’d call ‘em pools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>There were seven pools in all. Seawater would rush in through the tunnel and mix with extremely hot water coming out of a boiler house. Then, the rush of water would flow into the pools, each a different temperature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>The warmest pool was about 85, 86 degrees, maybe up to 90. And then they were sequentially cooler until the biggest pool that was ocean temperature. They didn’t bother to heat it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>But that’s not all. Anyone who’s been out to Lands End knows how cold and windy it can be, so Sutro decided to build a huge glass pavilion to cover the pools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>So, instead of an open-air swimming establishment, you ended up with the world’s largest indoor swimming complex.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>When it was finished, the baths had a footprint of 3 acres, about the same size as the ferry building — 10,000 people could pack inside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>People entered, and they descended a flight of stairs. The first level that you hit is called a promenade level, and the promenade level is where a lot of the museum displays were. You walked under a giant vestibule and then down a grand staircase that led you all the way down to the water on either side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>After more than a decade of construction, the baths formally opened in 1896. The \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em> described the event.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>Nearly 7,000 people gathered at the immense pavilion yesterday to witness the dedication of the magnificent structure, which Adolph Sutro has built on his land near the ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>There were restaurants and bars, curiosities from around the world — like mummies and a stuffed polar — space for a large band to play, an amphitheater and lots of areas to promenade. It was a place to be seen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>Those were colored panes of glass in the domes overhead so that sunlight gave multicolored, rippling effects on the water, especially when thousands and thousands of people at a time, making waves in the water, kids screams, music playing. It was an overwhelming sensation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutro wanted the working classes to be able to enjoy a day at his leisure palace. … and to spend their money there. … so he pushed the railroads to keep the streetcar fares to Outside Lands low.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: He had this sort of egalitarian slant.\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Hector Falero says his populist streak made him popular with the people. They even elected him mayor!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero:\u003c/b> He wanted people Of various class backgrounds to be able to access the place equitably.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>For 25 cents, visitors could rent a bathing suit, use the lockers, visit the attractions, swim and stay all day. Advertising campaigns at the time said Sutro Baths welcomed ALL San Franciscans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that wasn’t actually true.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Somber music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>One day, a group of friends took the streetcar from downtown out to enjoy a day at the new attraction. It was the fourth of July 1897, just a few months after the baths officially opened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Ellnson: \u003c/b>John Harris, who is an African American man, went with his several white friends to the baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Writer and historian Elaine Elinson researched this history for the National Park Service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>He was a waiter in San Francisco, and he paid his $0.25. And his white friends got their bathing suits and went in the pools. And he was told he could not go into the pools. Only his white friends could go into the pools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> John Harris tried to enter the baths again a week later. Again, he was not allowed to swim because of the color of his skin. So, he sued the Sutro family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>To challenge the former mayor of San Francisco really took a lot of chutzpah, bravado.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Harris used a new California law called The Dibble Civil Rights Act to challenge his treatment at the baths. The law prohibited discrimination in public places based on race.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Anderson: \u003c/b>That all came out of black California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Susan Anderson is the history curator for the California African American Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Anderson: \u003c/b>It was significant to black people to have their rights enshrined. They worked together to influence Assembly Member Dibble to sponsor the Dibble Act, California’s first civil rights act, in 1896.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Many Black migrants to California were already skilled leaders in the abolitionist movement. Racist policies and attitudes limited them to low-paying jobs — hotel waiters, railroad porters, clerks — but through their work, they got to know powerful men like Dibble.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Anderson: \u003c/b>Enterprising people make the most of it. So, if you’re a porter or clerk in a court. And you’re an activist; you find comrades and allies and people you can network with people who are powerful for your cause.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Black activists likely \u003ci>wrote\u003c/i> the Dibble Civil Rights Act and lobbied other legislators to pass it. Then, local groups like the African American Assembly in San Francisco tested the law, trying to give it teeth. That’s what John Harris did at Sutro Baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>We don’t have any exact testimony from John Harris himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Historian Elaine Elinson again. She says the court records burned in the 1906 fire. And mainstream newspapers of the day didn’t bother interviewing the central figure in the case, John Harris himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Ellinson: \u003c/b>I have to say that the mainstream press was really vitriolic against John Harris and the judge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Elaine pieced together her account from lawyers’ notes, newspaper articles and personal letters. She says the African American Assembly paid Harris’ legal fees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>John Harris won his case, but, you know, he only earned $100 for the two times he was refused entrance to the baths. So it wasn’t a monetary victory, but it was a very, very important civil rights victory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The Sutro family and Bath managers were unrepentant. They continued to make racist remarks that the mainstream newspapers published.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>It is interesting to see that these cases challenged and won but often did not change public attitudes or public policy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Two years after Sutro Baths opened, Adolph Sutro died. He was 68. He left his estate and properties to his children, who continued to run the baths. And the attraction remained incredibly popular, but the Sutro family was ready to unload the property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>They kept trying to sell it. No one wanted to buy it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Martini says Sutro sunk a lot of cash into constructing the baths, and they cost a fortune to run. His children wanted to recoup that investment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>In 1913, the family tried to get the city to buy it. No dice. The city turned it down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Then, in the ’30s, the Great Depression hit. Many San Franciscans didn’t have money for a leisure day at the baths, and slowly, the facilities began to fall into disrepair. Adolph Sutro’s grandson was in charge at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>He decided to rebuild part of the baths and turn it into an indoor ice skating rink, and it opened in 1936 and it was immensely popular. Immediately popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Martini remembers going there as a kid in the 1950s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>The ice rink was actually quite dark inside. It turned out that all that great glass. It tended to melt the ice. So, they intentionally blanked out the glass roof over the ice skating rink.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>In 1952, the Sutro family announced they were closing the facility. It just cost too much to run. That’s when one of their competitors, George Whitney, swooped in and bought it for a bargain. Whitney owned Playland-at-the-Beach, the popular amusement park on Ocean Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>George Whitney revamped the baths one more time. He recognized that there was still a few nickels to be made out of the old place, and that he would be the perfect place for him to display all of his personal collections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Antique carriages, historic photographs, pinball machines and other novelties that can now be found in the Musee Mecanique started out at Sutros.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>Much of what was in Sutro still exists. It’s just moved all over the world now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutros finally closed for good in the 1960s. A \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em> article marks the occasion:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>The second half of the 20th century at last caught up with an old San Francisco legend. Sutro Baths, created 70 years ago, closed forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The Whitney family sold the Sutro Bath property to a developer who planned to build condominiums on the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>Demolition began in early June of 1966. And on June 26, 1966, a very convenient fire broke out that, in one long afternoon, destroyed the building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Police suspected arson but could never prove it. In any case, the fire destroyed the building much faster than work crews ever could. People from the neighborhood came out to watch as the iconic white pavilion burned to the ground. Sutros creation up in smoke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of waves, birds singing, the crunching of footsteps\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Honestly, I can almost imagine what it looked like to Sutro when he came here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> Yeah?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Yeah, like, with the beach out past the retaining wall and the big rock out there, you can almost imagine him, like, walking on the beach. More than 100 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> I mean, I can definitely understand how somebody would see this. And if you had the money to buy it, think this must be mine! Once you kind of get down closer to the baths, as you look up, you can really get a sense of where the rest of the building used to be. If you look up at the hillside that’s kind of underneath the Cliff house, there’s a number of just like slabs of concrete that probably indicate different levels of what was once here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Clearly man-made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Yeah. All right. So we’ve made it down to the ruins, and we’re standing on the retaining wall. That really is a wall between two worlds. On one side, we have the wild Pacific battering the coastline. And on the other side of the wall, the world that Sutro built, which these days looks more like a home for the birds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Yeah, this may be a swimming hole for the birds now, but standing here on the wall, you could almost imagine diving in, back in the 1920s, in your really heavy bathing suit, with a slide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>And how majestic it would have been to be able to swim and also look at the ocean at the same time. But it was a complicated story. This wasn’t an amazing space for everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Right. It’s got a nostalgic element to it for some people, a lot of happy memories. But for other people, this place is a symbol of pain and rejection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Now I can’t help but notice. But there are not condominiums here, as was once the plan. What happened with that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Well, so after the fire, the property kind of just languished for about a decade. Then, the National Park Service bought it, and they turned it into open space. And they asked San Franciscans what they wanted done with the new park. And people basically said they wanted to leave it as it was — ruins. Something that they could explore on their own terms, not interpreted with any park signs or pathways or anything like that. Just a place you could explore, which is what we’re doing right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>In a way, that’s really the most perfect ending for this story, because it’s still an attraction people come to for its beauty, for the experience of being here. But now it’s a truly public space that’s free and open for everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode of Bay Curious was made by…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Our engineer, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Ellen Price. Extra special thanks to our field recording team this week…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli (in scene):\u003c/b> Tamuna Chkareuli\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lusen Mendel (in scene):\u003c/b> Lusen Mendel\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/b> Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> And me, Olivia Allen-Price. We had a blast at Sutro Baths. If you haven’t been, go check it out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Lots of folks to thank this week, including the San Francisco Historical Society, for letting us use John Martini’s presentation. The people behind this podcast include:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jen Chien:\u003c/b> Jen Chien\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cesar Saldaña:\u003c/b> Cesar Saldaña\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Sprenger:\u003c/b> Katie Sprenger\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maha Sanad:\u003c/b> Maha Sanad\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Holly Kernan:\u003c/b> Holly Kernan\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Crowd:\u003c/b> And the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> This story first appeared in the Bay Curious Book, which has just celebrated its one-year birthday of being out in the world. To celebrate, we’ve got a sweet deal for listeners of this podcast for the month of May. You can buy the e-book for $1.99. I mean, that’s almost free, right? We’ll pop some links in our show notes on how you can get that deal, or you can always drop by your local bookstore and pick up the beautiful, colorful paperback copy. Whichever you choose, we love you for it. Thanks. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"On San Francisco’s far western edge, Sutro Baths was once one of the city’s hottest destinations. But it was also the site of a little-known civil rights battle.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1715216064,"stats":{"hasAudio":true,"hasVideo":true,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":151,"wordCount":5728},"headData":{"title":"Inside Sutro Baths, San Francisco's Once Grand Bathing Palace | KQED","description":"On San Francisco’s far western edge, Sutro Baths was once one of the city’s hottest destinations. But it was also the site of a little-known civil rights battle.","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Inside Sutro Baths, San Francisco's Once Grand Bathing Palace","datePublished":"2024-05-09T03:00:22-07:00","dateModified":"2024-05-08T17:54:24-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"source":"Bay Curious","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious/","audioUrl":"https://dcs.megaphone.fm/KQINC8581019303.mp3?key=f12ca2f75249075693b11715f06ec214&request_event_id=2d9cffbf-ea54-48dd-b978-96f947e20b25","sticky":false,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11985359/inside-sutro-baths-san-franciscos-once-grand-bathing-palace","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Standing at the Lands’ End parking lot, overlooking the ruins of Sutro Baths, it feels like the edge of the world. To the left, Point Lobos Road winds down towards the straight stretch of Ocean Beach, past the Cliff House restaurant perched atop an overlook. And out in front is the wild Pacific Ocean, crashing against a man-made seawall stretching across the bottom of the cove. A faint outline of square pools can still be seen, but it looks more like a playland for the ducks and cormorants than a place humans would want to swim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s hard to tell now, but Sutro Baths was \u003ci>the place to be\u003c/i> at the turn of the 19th century. Seven massive baths were built into the cove, each filled with seawater and heated to different temperatures. A beautiful glass pavilion covered the pools to shield swimmers from the wind and fog. So, what happened to the grand establishment? How did it go from a glittering bathing palace to wild ruins?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To understand the history of Sutro Baths, we first need to learn about the man for whom they are named — Adolph Sutro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985364\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985364\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut.jpg\" alt=\"A black cormorant spreads its wings on the remnants of a wall. The ocean crashes in the distance.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Seagulls, cormorants and ducks have made the remnants of the Sutro Baths their home now. The ruins are a beautiful place to explore and imagine what once stood here. \u003ccite>(Tamuna Chkareuli/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>A self-made man\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Born in 1830, Adolph Sutro was a German Jewish immigrant to San Francisco. He arrived in 1850, at the height of the Gold Rush, and set up a shop selling dry goods — mostly tobacco. When news of a silver deposit in Nevada hit the newspapers, he dropped everything and headed out to work on the Comstock Lode. First, he ran a refining mill but kept thinking about one of mining’s biggest problems — surface water. It would seep down from above, sometimes drowning miners deep below the earth’s surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985371\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 394px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985371\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/adolph-sutro-cropped.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white portrait of a white man with white hair and mutton chops whiskers.\" width=\"394\" height=\"444\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/adolph-sutro-cropped.jpg 394w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/adolph-sutro-cropped-160x180.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 394px) 100vw, 394px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Adolph Sutro, 1830–98. He served as mayor of San Francisco from 1895–97. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A143030?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=50b41f01b154203e6a0f&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=0\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Sutro’s solution was to build a big tunnel that would carry water away from workers, making the conditions much safer. He opened his Sutro Tunnel in 1878 to much acclaim. Not only did it make mining safer, but it also offered an easier way to extract the silver ore and offered another escape route for miners in an emergency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He was able to eventually patent this and became kind of a mythical figure among the silver miners in that part of Nevada,” said Hector Falero, a former education manager for the Golden Gate National Recreation Area, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/upload/sutro_history.pdf\">the National Park that manages the Sutro Baths site now\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutro returned to San Francisco a rich man and began investing in real estate. He loved the “Outside Lands” at the far western edge of the city, \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=How_Many_Cliff_Houses%3F\">near the Cliff House\u003c/a>, and bought close to 22 acres of oceanfront property overlooking a nearby cove. He built his mansion there at Sutro Heights and began planning for a grand attraction in the cove itself. Just a few years later, he also bought the Cliff House and started planning to redesign it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985365\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985365\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house.png\" alt=\"Black and white photo of a massive Victorian-era structure perched on a cliff overlooking the ocean.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">After purchasing the Cliff House, Sutro rebuilt it in grand style. Soon after it opened, a fire destroyed it. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A129779?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=6afb3a4aaad152445a8c&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=5\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Building Sutro Baths\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before Sutro got hold of it, the cove below the Cliff House was a quiet little beach surrounded by steep cliffs. Sutro was fascinated by marine life and loved watching sea lions play on the rocks. Legend has it, that’s what gave him the idea of creating an aquarium in the cove. He first built a circular pool on the northwest end that would be filled by seawater rushing in from a large tunnel he bore through the rock. He planned to fill the aquarium pool with ocean water and sea creatures — like a man-made tidepool — and then, as the water gradually seeped through a drainage canal he built, the sea creatures would be left behind and easy to view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The tunnel and pool worked so well that Sutro kept building. He refocused his efforts on building an attraction for saltwater swimming, which was booming in popularity. The round aquarium pool became a settling tank, a place for any sediment from the ocean water to separate out. He added a seawall to protect the cove from the waves and built a massive swimming pool across the entire cove. It was subdivided into seven pools, each holding water of a different temperature. Cold seawater would rush through the tunnel, past a boiler house where it would mix with very hot water, and then stream down through the various pools, getting cooler as it went. The largest pool was the coldest — the temperature of the sea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985373\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985373\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-interior-baths-OpenSF.jpg\" alt=\"Huge glass and steel structure covers a bathing facility with seven pools.\" width=\"700\" height=\"549\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-interior-baths-OpenSF.jpg 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-interior-baths-OpenSF-160x125.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Inside Sutro Baths circa 1910 looking north towards the promenade. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://opensfhistory.org/Display/wnp4/wnp4.0211.jpg\">OpenSFHistory / wnp4/wnp4.0211\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A prospectus from the San Francisco-based Floating Sea-Bath Company touted the positive effects of seawater bathing:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>\u003ci>Pleasure is an essential item of the real bath, and among the most active of its beneficial forces. There can be no doubt that a great number of our citizens would seek to enjoy the tonic effects of sea bathing, but for the low temperatures of the water.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>Sutro solved that problem. And he didn’t stop there. He built a massive pavilion over the baths to protect swimmers from cold sea air and fog. Made of iron girders, wood and glass, it was a giant white building with a 3-acre footprint. Visitors entered from above, off Point Lobos Avenue, and descended a grand stairway to the baths below.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutro Baths wasn’t just a swimming facility — it was a place to be seen. There were several levels to stop and promenade, restaurants, bars, and a museum of curios Sutro had collected while traveling all over the world, including some rare mummies. For 25 cents, visitors could enter the baths, rent a bathing suit and towel, use the changing rooms and swim all day.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/8o4JS0d_qyY'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/8o4JS0d_qyY'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>Sutro knew getting people out to his new attraction would be challenging since the neighborhoods near Golden Gate Park were not built up yet, and most people lived much further east. So, he waged war with the railroad companies to keep the streetcar fares low, enabling the average working person to afford a visit to the baths. This egalitarian fight won him a lot of goodwill with San Franciscans, who eventually elected him mayor in 1895. For a while, there was even a train that went along the cliff at Lands’ End, offering spectacular views of the Bay.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/9qgapRWmiUY'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/9qgapRWmiUY'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003ch3>\u003cb>Sutro Baths officially open in 1896\u003c/b>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>After more than a decade of construction, the baths officially opened in 1896. They were an immediate hit. The space was big enough for an orchestra to play, and Sutro regularly hosted large events at the baths. There were competitions, concerts and diving displays.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985382\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985382\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center.png\" alt=\"Black and white aerial view of the massive Sutro Baths pavilion.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An aerial view shows just how massive the baths and pavilion were when finished. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A130128?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=950123d10c91ec349686&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=2&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=8\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Site of an early civil rights lawsuit\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Sutro Baths advertised itself as a place for \u003ci>all San Franciscans\u003c/i> to enjoy the salubrious effects of sea bathing, but that wasn’t actually true.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On July 4, 1897, just a few months after the baths officially opened, John Harris, an African American waiter, paid to enter the baths with a group of his white friends. He was told he was not allowed to swim because of the color of his skin. A week later, he tried again and was once again rebuffed. So, he sued the Sutro family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To challenge the former mayor of San Francisco really took a lot of chutzpah, bravado,” said historian and writer Elaine Elinson. \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/john-harris-civil-rights.htm\">She researched John Harris’ story for the National Park Service. \u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a year before, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/john-harris-civil-rights.htm\">California passed the Dibble Civil Rights Act, the first of its kind in the state\u003c/a>, which made it illegal to discriminate in public places based on race. Harris used the new law to challenge his treatment at Sutro Baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985391\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 750px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985391\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/opensfhistory_wnp4_wnp4.0298.jpg\" alt=\"Large group of white swimmers in old fashioned swim suits.\" width=\"750\" height=\"601\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/opensfhistory_wnp4_wnp4.0298.jpg 750w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/opensfhistory_wnp4_wnp4.0298-160x128.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 750px) 100vw, 750px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A crowd of all-white swimmers at Sutro Baths, circa 1910. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://opensfhistory.org/Display/wnp4/wnp4.0298.jpg\">OpenSFHistory / wnp4/wnp4.0298\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A group of Black activists, known as the African American Assembly, supported Harris’ suit by paying his legal fees. They hoped this early test of the new civil rights law would give it teeth.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>A deeper history of Black activism in California\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Dibble Civil Rights Act was the result of many years of organizing by California’s Black residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of the people who ended up as civic leaders or church leaders were already highly experienced and skilled in the abolitionist movement,” said Susan Anderson, the history curator at the \u003ca href=\"https://caamuseum.org/\">African American Museum in Los Angeles\u003c/a>. She’s writing a book about how Black Californians have influenced civic culture and institutions going back to before statehood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was significant to Black people to have their rights enshrined,” Anderson said. “They worked together to influence Assembly Member [Henry Clay] Dibble to sponsor the Dibble Act, California’s first civil rights act, in 1896.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s likely Black activists wrote the law, Anderson said and lobbied other legislators to pass it. At a time when racist attitudes and policies limited Black Californians to only the most menial jobs — porters, waiters, clerks — this was a tremendous feat. Black people used the connections they made through these serving jobs to push the causes important to them, Anderson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8581019303&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So if you’re a porter or clerk in a court, and you’re an activist, you find comrades and allies and people you can network with who are powerful for your cause,” Anderson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She points out that the African American organizations of the time were very organized. Members across California met once a year to set their agenda, and then local chapters worked to implement them. Before California even became a state, they worked on issues like the right to vote, the right to testify in court, equal access to education and, of course, anti-discrimination laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the Dibble Civil Rights Law passed in 1896, local groups, like the African American Assembly Club in San Francisco, started testing the law. That’s what John Harris did at Sutro Baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“John Harris won his case, but he only earned $100 for the two times he was refused entrance to the baths,” said Elaine Elinson. “So it wasn’t a monetary victory, but it was a very, very important civil rights victory.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite this historic victory, very little changed at Sutro Baths. \u003ca href=\"http://www.outsidelands.org/sutro-baths-segregation.php\">It remained segregated in practice, if not by law\u003c/a>, until the Civil Rights era of the 1950s and ‘60s. There are cases of other non-white San Franciscans being denied entry, too, including members of the city’s large Chinese American community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is interesting to see that these cases [were] challenged and won, but often did not change public attitudes or public policy,” Elinson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Sutro Baths’ slow decline\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985394\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985394\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center.png\" alt=\"Black and white photo of cabanas with straw roofs inside a large glass pavilion.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Sutro family revamped the interior of the baths several times, including this tropical version circa 1935. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A130193?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=5c559fc2d23fe6107f55&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=5\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Adolph Sutro died just a few years after the baths officially opened in 1898. He was 68 years old and left Sutro Baths to his children. They continued to operate the site, even though it didn’t make much money. Sutro had sunk a lot of cash into constructing the grand facility, costing a fortune to run.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 1930s, when the Great Depression hit, many San Franciscans didn’t have the money for a leisure day out, and the baths began to fall into disrepair. Adolph Sutro’s grandson tried revamping the business in 1936 by covering some of the pools and building an ice skating rink. That was a popular move but it didn’t do enough to save the business. Eventually, in 1952, the Sutros announced they would close the facility. That’s when one of their competitors — George Whitney — swooped in and bought it for a bargain.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/JklqpaDdYX0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/JklqpaDdYX0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whitney owned \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11925112/idora-park-and-playland-at-the-beach-bay-area-amusement-parks-of-a-bygone-era\">Playland-at-the-Beach, a popular amusement park on Ocean Beach\u003c/a>. He thought he could squeeze a little more money out of Sutros and use the space to house his collection of mechanical oddities. But his family couldn’t make a go of it either and ended up selling the property to a developer who planned to build condominiums on the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutros finally closed for good in 1966. Just a few months later, a fire burned the grand structure to the ground. People from the neighborhood came out and watched the iconic building burn. The police suspected arson but could never prove it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985395\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985395\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center.png\" alt=\"Smoke billows from the skeleton of a building built on a cliff overlooking the ocean.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Sutro Baths pavilion burned to the ground in 1966. Neighbors came out to watch the iconic building burn. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A130156?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=2fad4a0f6ccdbd8148f8&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=6&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=14\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>About a decade later, the National Park Service bought the property for open space. The community didn’t want the park to build interpretive services at the site of the old baths, instead preferring its current state — a set of ruins that hearken back to a grand past but that are free and open for all to explore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of birds, distant waves crashing, people talking, wind\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> Wow. Okay, so I’ve been to this place a few times, but never on a day quite like today. It is a stunner out here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/b> Beautiful weather, perfect May day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Hey, everyone. Olivia Allen-Price here with Katrina Schwartz, producer extraordinaire of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Hello.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>And we are at Sutro Baths. So right at the entrance of Land’s End, the hiking trail, if you’ve done that. We’re looking at the Cliff House to our left, a long-time-running restaurant, currently not running, but hopefully will come back again soon. But down in this cove is really why we are here. There is something pretty interesting down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>It looks like a massive pool, except the edges of it are more like a pond with moss growing and ducks and seagulls. People are walking out on that retaining wall, but it has this air of mystery because you can tell something was once here, but now nature is reclaiming it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Today on Bay Curious, we’re going on a field trip to a spot many of you have been requesting over the years! We’ll learn why and how Sutro Baths were built, what visiting would have felt like back in the day, and while researching this story, we stumbled upon a lesser known piece of civil rights history — so we’ll be sharing that. This story first appeared in the Bay Curious book — available now wherever books are sold. We’re diving in — literally — just ahead on Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> San Francisco has a lot of historic places, many of which have been rebuilt or repurposed in modern ways. But the ruins of Sutro Baths remain wild and untouched. Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz brings us the story of the rise and fall of this iconic bathing palace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> To understand why these somewhat sparse ruins have captivated the imaginations of locals and visitors alike, we need to learn a bit more about the man behind them. Adolph Sutro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>He was born in Germany in 1830 to a Jewish family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Hector Falero is a former education manager for the Golden Gate Recreation Area — the National Park that manages the Sutro Baths site now. He says Sutro arrived in San Francisco as a young man in 1850, right as the Gold Rush was kicking off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>He’s living in San Francisco and mostly selling tobacco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Many of his customers were miners, and he learned as much as he could about the business. When news of a massive silver discovery in Nevada hit the papers, he decided to join the fray and try to make his fortune on the Comstock Lode. He first opened a refining mill, but he’d long been thinking about one of mining’s biggest problems — surface water. It would seep down, sometimes drowning miners. Adolph Sutro’s solution was to build a huge tunnel deep in the mine that ran downhill and carried water away from the workmen. The Sutro Tunnel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>He was able to eventually patent this and became kind of like a mythical figure among the silver miners in that part of Nevada.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutro made millions on his invention. He returned to San Francisco a rich man and began investing in real estate. He especially liked the wind-swept “Outside Lands” near the Pacific Ocean. Not many people lived out there yet, but Sutro wanted to change that. In 1881, he bought 22 acres of oceanfront property overlooking the Cliff House, which was already operating as an inn and restaurant. Sutro would buy the Cliff House just a few years later and incorporate it into his grand vision for the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>Where he saw a gap was in bathing or swimming.\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>In the late 1800s, most people lived crowded into boarding houses and rented rooms in downtown San Francisco. Saltwater swimming was all the rage, a welcome respite from these cramped interiors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>There was some sort of like concept of health associated with Pacific waters. But it’s very cold. And so the need that Adolfo Sutro saw was, hey, I would love to create some baths and I would love to create them to be sort of temperature controlled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutro put his engineering brain to work designing a series of pools and tunnels that would harness the tides to create a swimming facility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first problem to solve was how to bring seawater into a protected pool away from crashing ocean waves. So, Sutro did what he did best. He built a massive tunnel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>The water would rush in at high tide and be able to fill the pools almost instantly. This was one of the technological aspects that was incredible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>He demonstrated the system to reporters nearly a decade \u003ci>before\u003c/i> the baths would officially open. An article in the \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> reads:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice-over reads newspaper clipping: \u003c/b>At great expense, a tunnel was excavated, 8 feet high and 15 feet long, through the solid rock. It is through this tunnel that the water comes at extreme high tide and for about two hours before and after.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Over the next many years, Sutro transformed this quiet cove into a massive engineering project. He built a seawall across the entire span to keep the waves out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>He lined most of the cove with concrete.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Martini is the author of \u003ci>Sutro’s Glass Palace: The Story of Sutro Baths.\u003c/i> He presented his research to the San Francisco Historical Society.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>So he literally subdivided the cove into what he called swimming tanks. We’d call ‘em pools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>There were seven pools in all. Seawater would rush in through the tunnel and mix with extremely hot water coming out of a boiler house. Then, the rush of water would flow into the pools, each a different temperature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>The warmest pool was about 85, 86 degrees, maybe up to 90. And then they were sequentially cooler until the biggest pool that was ocean temperature. They didn’t bother to heat it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>But that’s not all. Anyone who’s been out to Lands End knows how cold and windy it can be, so Sutro decided to build a huge glass pavilion to cover the pools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>So, instead of an open-air swimming establishment, you ended up with the world’s largest indoor swimming complex.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>When it was finished, the baths had a footprint of 3 acres, about the same size as the ferry building — 10,000 people could pack inside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>People entered, and they descended a flight of stairs. The first level that you hit is called a promenade level, and the promenade level is where a lot of the museum displays were. You walked under a giant vestibule and then down a grand staircase that led you all the way down to the water on either side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>After more than a decade of construction, the baths formally opened in 1896. The \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em> described the event.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>Nearly 7,000 people gathered at the immense pavilion yesterday to witness the dedication of the magnificent structure, which Adolph Sutro has built on his land near the ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>There were restaurants and bars, curiosities from around the world — like mummies and a stuffed polar — space for a large band to play, an amphitheater and lots of areas to promenade. It was a place to be seen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>Those were colored panes of glass in the domes overhead so that sunlight gave multicolored, rippling effects on the water, especially when thousands and thousands of people at a time, making waves in the water, kids screams, music playing. It was an overwhelming sensation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutro wanted the working classes to be able to enjoy a day at his leisure palace. … and to spend their money there. … so he pushed the railroads to keep the streetcar fares to Outside Lands low.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: He had this sort of egalitarian slant.\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Hector Falero says his populist streak made him popular with the people. They even elected him mayor!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero:\u003c/b> He wanted people Of various class backgrounds to be able to access the place equitably.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>For 25 cents, visitors could rent a bathing suit, use the lockers, visit the attractions, swim and stay all day. Advertising campaigns at the time said Sutro Baths welcomed ALL San Franciscans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that wasn’t actually true.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Somber music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>One day, a group of friends took the streetcar from downtown out to enjoy a day at the new attraction. It was the fourth of July 1897, just a few months after the baths officially opened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Ellnson: \u003c/b>John Harris, who is an African American man, went with his several white friends to the baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Writer and historian Elaine Elinson researched this history for the National Park Service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>He was a waiter in San Francisco, and he paid his $0.25. And his white friends got their bathing suits and went in the pools. And he was told he could not go into the pools. Only his white friends could go into the pools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> John Harris tried to enter the baths again a week later. Again, he was not allowed to swim because of the color of his skin. So, he sued the Sutro family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>To challenge the former mayor of San Francisco really took a lot of chutzpah, bravado.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Harris used a new California law called The Dibble Civil Rights Act to challenge his treatment at the baths. The law prohibited discrimination in public places based on race.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Anderson: \u003c/b>That all came out of black California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Susan Anderson is the history curator for the California African American Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Anderson: \u003c/b>It was significant to black people to have their rights enshrined. They worked together to influence Assembly Member Dibble to sponsor the Dibble Act, California’s first civil rights act, in 1896.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Many Black migrants to California were already skilled leaders in the abolitionist movement. Racist policies and attitudes limited them to low-paying jobs — hotel waiters, railroad porters, clerks — but through their work, they got to know powerful men like Dibble.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Anderson: \u003c/b>Enterprising people make the most of it. So, if you’re a porter or clerk in a court. And you’re an activist; you find comrades and allies and people you can network with people who are powerful for your cause.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Black activists likely \u003ci>wrote\u003c/i> the Dibble Civil Rights Act and lobbied other legislators to pass it. Then, local groups like the African American Assembly in San Francisco tested the law, trying to give it teeth. That’s what John Harris did at Sutro Baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>We don’t have any exact testimony from John Harris himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Historian Elaine Elinson again. She says the court records burned in the 1906 fire. And mainstream newspapers of the day didn’t bother interviewing the central figure in the case, John Harris himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Ellinson: \u003c/b>I have to say that the mainstream press was really vitriolic against John Harris and the judge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Elaine pieced together her account from lawyers’ notes, newspaper articles and personal letters. She says the African American Assembly paid Harris’ legal fees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>John Harris won his case, but, you know, he only earned $100 for the two times he was refused entrance to the baths. So it wasn’t a monetary victory, but it was a very, very important civil rights victory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The Sutro family and Bath managers were unrepentant. They continued to make racist remarks that the mainstream newspapers published.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>It is interesting to see that these cases challenged and won but often did not change public attitudes or public policy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Two years after Sutro Baths opened, Adolph Sutro died. He was 68. He left his estate and properties to his children, who continued to run the baths. And the attraction remained incredibly popular, but the Sutro family was ready to unload the property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>They kept trying to sell it. No one wanted to buy it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Martini says Sutro sunk a lot of cash into constructing the baths, and they cost a fortune to run. His children wanted to recoup that investment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>In 1913, the family tried to get the city to buy it. No dice. The city turned it down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Then, in the ’30s, the Great Depression hit. Many San Franciscans didn’t have money for a leisure day at the baths, and slowly, the facilities began to fall into disrepair. Adolph Sutro’s grandson was in charge at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>He decided to rebuild part of the baths and turn it into an indoor ice skating rink, and it opened in 1936 and it was immensely popular. Immediately popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Martini remembers going there as a kid in the 1950s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>The ice rink was actually quite dark inside. It turned out that all that great glass. It tended to melt the ice. So, they intentionally blanked out the glass roof over the ice skating rink.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>In 1952, the Sutro family announced they were closing the facility. It just cost too much to run. That’s when one of their competitors, George Whitney, swooped in and bought it for a bargain. Whitney owned Playland-at-the-Beach, the popular amusement park on Ocean Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>George Whitney revamped the baths one more time. He recognized that there was still a few nickels to be made out of the old place, and that he would be the perfect place for him to display all of his personal collections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Antique carriages, historic photographs, pinball machines and other novelties that can now be found in the Musee Mecanique started out at Sutros.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>Much of what was in Sutro still exists. It’s just moved all over the world now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutros finally closed for good in the 1960s. A \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em> article marks the occasion:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>The second half of the 20th century at last caught up with an old San Francisco legend. Sutro Baths, created 70 years ago, closed forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The Whitney family sold the Sutro Bath property to a developer who planned to build condominiums on the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>Demolition began in early June of 1966. And on June 26, 1966, a very convenient fire broke out that, in one long afternoon, destroyed the building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Police suspected arson but could never prove it. In any case, the fire destroyed the building much faster than work crews ever could. People from the neighborhood came out to watch as the iconic white pavilion burned to the ground. Sutros creation up in smoke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of waves, birds singing, the crunching of footsteps\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Honestly, I can almost imagine what it looked like to Sutro when he came here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> Yeah?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Yeah, like, with the beach out past the retaining wall and the big rock out there, you can almost imagine him, like, walking on the beach. More than 100 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> I mean, I can definitely understand how somebody would see this. And if you had the money to buy it, think this must be mine! Once you kind of get down closer to the baths, as you look up, you can really get a sense of where the rest of the building used to be. If you look up at the hillside that’s kind of underneath the Cliff house, there’s a number of just like slabs of concrete that probably indicate different levels of what was once here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Clearly man-made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Yeah. All right. So we’ve made it down to the ruins, and we’re standing on the retaining wall. That really is a wall between two worlds. On one side, we have the wild Pacific battering the coastline. And on the other side of the wall, the world that Sutro built, which these days looks more like a home for the birds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Yeah, this may be a swimming hole for the birds now, but standing here on the wall, you could almost imagine diving in, back in the 1920s, in your really heavy bathing suit, with a slide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>And how majestic it would have been to be able to swim and also look at the ocean at the same time. But it was a complicated story. This wasn’t an amazing space for everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Right. It’s got a nostalgic element to it for some people, a lot of happy memories. But for other people, this place is a symbol of pain and rejection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Now I can’t help but notice. But there are not condominiums here, as was once the plan. What happened with that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Well, so after the fire, the property kind of just languished for about a decade. Then, the National Park Service bought it, and they turned it into open space. And they asked San Franciscans what they wanted done with the new park. And people basically said they wanted to leave it as it was — ruins. Something that they could explore on their own terms, not interpreted with any park signs or pathways or anything like that. Just a place you could explore, which is what we’re doing right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>In a way, that’s really the most perfect ending for this story, because it’s still an attraction people come to for its beauty, for the experience of being here. But now it’s a truly public space that’s free and open for everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode of Bay Curious was made by…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Our engineer, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Ellen Price. Extra special thanks to our field recording team this week…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli (in scene):\u003c/b> Tamuna Chkareuli\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lusen Mendel (in scene):\u003c/b> Lusen Mendel\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/b> Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> And me, Olivia Allen-Price. We had a blast at Sutro Baths. If you haven’t been, go check it out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Lots of folks to thank this week, including the San Francisco Historical Society, for letting us use John Martini’s presentation. The people behind this podcast include:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jen Chien:\u003c/b> Jen Chien\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cesar Saldaña:\u003c/b> Cesar Saldaña\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Sprenger:\u003c/b> Katie Sprenger\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maha Sanad:\u003c/b> Maha Sanad\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Holly Kernan:\u003c/b> Holly Kernan\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Crowd:\u003c/b> And the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> This story first appeared in the Bay Curious Book, which has just celebrated its one-year birthday of being out in the world. To celebrate, we’ve got a sweet deal for listeners of this podcast for the month of May. You can buy the e-book for $1.99. I mean, that’s almost free, right? We’ll pop some links in our show notes on how you can get that deal, or you can always drop by your local bookstore and pick up the beautiful, colorful paperback copy. Whichever you choose, we love you for it. Thanks. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11985359/inside-sutro-baths-san-franciscos-once-grand-bathing-palace","authors":["234"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_223","news_28250","news_8"],"tags":["news_4750","news_34029","news_6627","news_34028","news_22761"],"featImg":"news_11985361","label":"source_news_11985359"},"news_11782405":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11782405","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"news","id":"11782405","score":null,"sort":[1714644006000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"tunnels-under-san-francisco-inside-the-dark-dangerous-world-of-the-sewers","title":"Tunnels Under San Francisco? Inside the Dark, Dangerous World of the Sewers","publishDate":1714644006,"format":"video","headTitle":"Tunnels Under San Francisco? Inside the Dark, Dangerous World of the Sewers | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a>, we’ve received a \u003cem>lot\u003c/em> of questions about tunnels under San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Listeners have told us they’ve heard stories of secret passageways running under the city. They’ve asked us, what is the truth about them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing I should tell you is: They’re absolutely real.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>What Lies Beneath?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>The myth of the underground — a silent world hidden under our feet — is an endlessly alluring one. There are, after all, very \u003cem>real\u003c/em> labyrinths under major world cities. Like the infamous \u003ca href=\"http://catacombes.paris.fr/en\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">catacombs of Paris\u003c/a>, lined with the bones of the city’s dead, or the \u003ca href=\"https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/odessa-catacombs\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">terrifying catacombs under Odesa\u003c/a> in Ukraine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some people get so obsessed with the idea of tunnels that they search for underground adventures themselves. They call themselves “urban explorers.” If you hit Google looking for information on San Francisco’s particular underground, there’s a name that comes up again and again — an explorer named \u003ca href=\"http://www.sierrahartman.com/sf-underground\">Sierra Hartman\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782642\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782642 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A photographer and writer, Hartman’s haunting photographs of shadowy spaces under S.F. are, for many people, their first clue that this particular world of tunnels really does exist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s just ingrained in human nature, you know?” Hartman says of the drive to venture below. “You wonder what’s down there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hartman lives in Tacoma, Washington, but grew up in Southern California. It was roaming around on his bike as a kid with friends, Goonies-style, that he discovered the dark urban waterways in his hometown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You take a 12-year-old kid and show them an entrance of a tunnel? Like, they’re \u003cem>going\u003c/em> to go in,” Hartman says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782644\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782644 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Arriving in San Francisco later in life, he began exploring the city’s streets at night with his camera. One of those nights, a chance encounter with a manhole left open led him beneath the San Francisco for the first time — and sparked an adult passion for urban exploration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Across the sleeping city, Hartman found entrances to dark, dripping tunnels, sloshing wet, that stretched for miles into the blackness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So much of it is just overgrown,” he says of those doorways. “You don’t \u003cem>realize\u003c/em> that there is a whole underground part of this thing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many urban explorers, Hartman says, he enjoyed the thrill of the hunt almost as much as the actual discovery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Like solving a puzzle,” he says. “It’s as much about solving the mystery and finding the thing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782645\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782645 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He used a mixture of publicly available records and maps, Google Earth, and whispers from fellow urban explorers, who are notoriously secretive about their finds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At least some of that is due to the risks of their enterprise. Bodily dangers aside, urban exploration represents “at best a gray area of legality in some places, and outright trespassing in other places,” as Hartman puts it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is the part where I tell you that this underground network Hartman risked bodily harm to venture into is no mysterious labyrinth built by shadowy figures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s San Francisco’s huge sewer network.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>A Complex World You Don’t See\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>“I crawl through a lot of sewer pipes. That’s basically my job,” says Megan Abadie, an assistant engineer for the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission wastewater enterprise. Her job sees her enter those same tunnels — legally — to make sure that this giant, intricate system filled with your waste keeps working the way it’s meant to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782900\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782900 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-1200x800.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in her office at San Francisco’s Public Utilities Commission. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There are a lot of misconceptions about the sewers, Abadie says. For one, what we surface-dwellers call “tunnels” aren’t truly tunnels — a term that specifically means a long run of pipe bored out of the earth with only a few manholes attached. When we talk of the “tunnels under San Francisco,” we’re usually talking, in fact, about sewer mains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco is 49 square miles but has over 1,000 miles of sewer mains under every block. What makes our system unique in California is the fact that it’s a combined system. Instead of stormwater and sewage water being separated into different pipes, as they are elsewhere in the state, in San Francisco, it all flows into the same set of pipes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782624\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782624 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut.jpg 1885w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie, deep in the San Francisco sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This is a legacy of the city’s relative age, with the foundations of our modern-day sewers being laid during the Gold Rush — in what Abadie describes as “a very ad hoc system … people would build pipes to just connect to the nearest creek.” There are still some pipes under your feet that date from the 1840s, she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just like in New York — another old, dense city — it was too hard to rip up San Francisco’s sewer network to replace the old system with secondary pipes. So we’ve repaired and adapted our old system, which is why this city still has those big, wide sewer mains … that people can’t seem to stay out of.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>A Lethal Labyrinth\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>“There’s a lot of things that can happen in the sewer that can actually kill you pretty easily,” Abadie reminds me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For one thing, there’s the risk of drowning down there. Because of San Francisco’s steep topography, Abadie and her colleagues never enter the sewers if there’s so much as a drizzle of rain anywhere in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782637\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782637 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the sewers of San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“If you’re in a large pipe at the bottom of a hill, it doesn’t take much for a big slug of water to hit you, even if it’s not raining very much where you are,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, there’s the danger of toxic gas, namely hydrogen sulfide, produced when organic material (waste matter, seaweed) starts to decompose. At low levels, it has a distinctive smell of rotten eggs. At higher levels, it affects a person’s sense of smell entirely and can knock you out — and kill you — within minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782625 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the San Francisco sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>On top of \u003cem>that\u003c/em>, there’s the threat of simply getting lost, injured or both in the sewers. Abadie and her fellow inspectors are equipped with accurate maps and supported by a large chain of people both below and above ground — weather spotters, medics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I go into the sewer system, I know exactly where I am. … You go into a pipe that you see sticking out somewhere? Open up a manhole? You’re not going to know where you are,” Abadie says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782638\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782638 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stooping low in the sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After hearing this, I had \u003cem>zero\u003c/em> intention of exploring the sewers alone for this story. But I couldn’t resist asking Megan to take me down to see an underground place that Sierra Hartman had told me about.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>A Trip into the Underworld\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>It looked more like a cave than a sewer, Hartman says. And I knew urban explorers like him would spend months, even years, trying to track down its precise location — because of how striking it looked and how it led right out to the Pacific Ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abadie knew exactly the place Hartman meant and asked me to wait until the timing was just right when it’d be safe enough at low tide, with no chance of rain. That timing turned out to be very early in the morning on the Fourth of July, the lowest tide of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782626\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782626 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Reporter Carly Severn being lowered into the sewer system. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As Abadie’s crew secured a harness and waist-high waders to my body, she explained why we’d be taking gas meters and oxygen masks down there. Even though the fast flow of the system we’d be entering would lower the hydrogen sulfide risk, “you can go into a sewer that’s been fine every single time, and one year something can be different,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With safety equipment secured, we were lowered one by one into the tunnel by rope, down a tall, rusting ladder until we finally reached the bottom of the sewer with a splash. The water reached our knees. Ahead, through the humid, misty air, was a long, high tunnel that seemed to stretch for miles in front of us. Down there in the darkness was that “sewer cave” — and the ocean. During the rainy season, Abadie reminded me that the tunnel we stood in would have been full of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782631\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1851px\">\u003ca href=\"manho\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782631 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1851\" height=\"1056\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut.jpg 1851w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-160x91.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-800x456.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-1020x582.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-1200x685.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1851px) 100vw, 1851px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Reporter Carly Severn is lowered down through a manhole. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Surprisingly, the sewers don’t smell how you might fear they would: the odor is agricultural, like a farmyard smell. Yet no matter how pleasant this surprise, wading through high sewer water in such humidity quickly becomes exhausting, like walking through deep snow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we walked through the tunnel, our voices echoing off the walls, Abadie told me about her first entries into the sewers after she started working for the city in 2011. The underground network, she says, reminded her of the vast Mines of Moria in “The Lord of the Rings.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I thought it was really cool. I even thought it was cool seeing a little turd float by! I mean, that’s not something everyone gets to see,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782632\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1885px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782632 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1885\" height=\"1060\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut.jpg 1885w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1885px) 100vw, 1885px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Exploring deep under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As we got closer to what \u003cem>I’d\u003c/em> come to see — that cave — the crashing of the Pacific Ocean suddenly grew louder. Looming in front of us, there it was: What looked like the tall, wide mouth of a cave, deep under San Francisco, carved from dark, jutting rock and yawning into more blackness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This,” Abadie says with some pride, “is definitely the most scenic and beautiful combined sewer overflow in San Francisco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782633\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"Sruti%20Mamidanna/KQED\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782633 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carly Severn and Megan Abadie in the mouth of the ‘sewer cave.’\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Passing through the cave, we had to stoop to get through the last part of our journey, our helmets scraping the ceiling. We were now inside the discharge pipe: the way the system can safely get water out during heavy storms, while providing primary-level treatment, when the usual storage areas under the city are full to the brim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the pipe, the waves we could hear crashing close suddenly became visible, as I found myself looking out at the ocean, framed by rock. After hours underground, it was now daylight out there. That entrance onto the water is, unthinkably, how some explorers try to get \u003cem>in\u003c/em> here via a tiny strip of beach that opens up only for a brief period of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782636\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1846px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782636 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1846\" height=\"1038\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut.jpg 1846w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1846px) 100vw, 1846px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A glimpse of the Pacific Ocean. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the tide started to rise, the waves started to crash further and further into the pipe toward us, and we knew it was time to go. As we moved back through the tunnel, the difference in smell was palpable: The people of San Francisco were waking up and were starting to use their bathrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After being attached to the rope and hauled out of the darkness and up through the manhole again, I was suddenly out of the city’s underworld. Exhausted, after hours of trudging through sewer water, the call of the underground was only more apparent to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what could people do, I asked Abadie, if after hearing the truth about the darkness and danger down there, they \u003cem>still\u003c/em> couldn’t resist the lure of subterranean exploration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1891px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782640 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1891\" height=\"1064\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut.jpg 1891w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1891px) 100vw, 1891px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the discharge pipe leading out to the ocean. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna )\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We have a lot of people retiring here. You can come work for us!” she says. “We will get you into sewers. It’ll be awesome. Your passion can actually get you \u003cem>paid\u003c/em> to explore sewers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Or become a public radio reporter,” she added. “Those are two ways that you can get into sewers and not die.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story first published on Oct. 31, 2019 and was updated and republished on May 2, 2024. Special thanks to Evan Thompson with his assistance for this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sounds of birds, dog barking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Around us all the time is the city that we know. The same stretch of sidewalk we walk on every day, the bus stop on the corner, our favorite restaurants, our neighborhood parks. If you live anywhere long enough, you can think you’ve seen it all. But what if beneath the streets there was another world? A place that’s so close to you all the time, but you wouldn’t even recognize it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Bay Curious theme music starts] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hey everyone, Olivia Allen-Price here. Over the years we’ve been running Bay Curious, we’ve received a bunch of questions about tunnels. Listeners who say they’ve heard stories of secret passageways running under San Francisco. \u003c/span>We aired an episode on the topic in 2019, but your questions have kept on coming … So today we’re going to revisit it, and answer the question do these tunnels exist?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor Message\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Those stories about hidden underground tunnel systems in the Bay Area. They’re true!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Underground tunnels echo]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: The structure is absolutely amazing. It’s also quite scary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: That voice you just heard was recorded deep under the streets of San Francisco, and it belongs to reporter Carly Severn. We sent her to investigate the secret world under the city,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Mystical music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> A lot of you will have heard the legends about the very real labyrinths under major world cities, like the famous catacombs of Paris, that are lined with the bones of the city’s dead. And if you hit Google looking for information on San Francisco’s underground like I did, there’s a name that comes up again and again an urban explorer called Sierra Hardman. And his incredible, haunting photographs of shadowy spaces under the city are, for many people, their first clue that this world of tunnels really exists. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think it’s just ingrained in human nature. You know, you wonder what’s down there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Sierra told me he’s been obsessed with exploring the underground since he was a kid, back when he was growing up in Southern California, riding around on his bike, Goonies style, and peering into dark urban waterways. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I mean, you take a 12 year old kid and you show them an entrance of a tunnel like they’re gonna to go in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When he was older, he moved to San Francisco and started roaming the streets with his camera while the rest of the city was sleeping, just looking for secret entry ways underground, guided by maps and city plans and whispers from other urban explorers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So much of it is just overgrown. Yeah, you drove past it so many times you don’t really recognize it as something really special. You don’t realize that there’s a whole, like, underground part of this thing.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He found doorways and manholes that led him down into dark, dripping tunnels stretching into blackness beyond the reach of his flashlight. But this network of underground spaces, this is no secret labyrinth built by shadowy figures. It’s San Francisco’s huge sewer network, and there’s one person in this city that knows the sewers inside out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: So my name’s Megan Abadie. I’m an assistant engineer for the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission Wastewater Enterprise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Megan’s job is making sure that system – yep – pipes filled with your waste works.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I crawl through a lot of sewer pipes. That’s basically my job. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Wastewater management, what we call sewers, can sound kind of gross, but how this stuff all works is pretty impressive. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco is about a seven by seven, you know, 49-50 mile square city. And we actually have over 1000 miles of sewer main. There’s sewers under every block. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The thing about the city’s sewers is many of these pipes are big. Big enough for curious risk takers to walk through rather than crawl, which isn’t possible in many other cities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco has a very different type of sewer system than pretty much any other city in California. It has what’s called a combined system. That means that the stormwater and the sewage water leak from your toilet and your sinks, it all goes into the same set of pipes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We have an old city, and that one pipe system was how folks did it back then. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco’s sewer network, began to be built during the Gold Rush era. So there are some pipes that date from the 1840s. It was a very ad hoc system at that time that people would build pipes to just connect to the nearest creek. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Just like in New York, another old dense city. It was too hard to rip up San Francisco’s sewer network to add secondary pipes. So we’ve repaired and adapted our old system, creating a maze of those big wide sewer mains. But listen, if you’re hearing this and are feeling the lure of exploring the world on the San Francisco yourself, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">don’t\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. Seriously.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a lot of things that can happen in the sewer that can actually kill you pretty easily. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was no way I was going to follow in the footsteps of an urban explorer like Sierra Hartmann and go roaming under San Francisco alone. But there was this one particular place that Sierra told me about that I knew I really wanted to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Dramatic music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A passageway somewhere beneath San Francisco that’s famous for its otherworldly look. Sierra had to pour over old sewer maps to find it. I was told it looks more like a cave than a sewer. And it leads right out onto the Pacific Ocean. Megan knew exactly the place I meant. And when conditions were just right, she said she’d take me down there herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’ll be over 200 feet below the ground, actually. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Crew conversation in the background]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And so that’s how I end up with Megan and her crew, at 2 AM on the 4th of July in a harness, in a waist-high waders, getting recording equipment taped to my body, about to be lowered down into an open manhole. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">…Does it feel..? Oh, look like it’s a good height, you don’t need to adjust the height.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our underground journey will lead us through a very watery tunnel, through that sewer cave, and into what they call a discharge pipe. Now, that pipe is the way the system can safely get water out during really heavy storms, when the usual storage areas under the city are full to the brim. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, so when we get out into the discharge pipe, you’re going to hear the ocean, just boring through this final stretch of tunnel. And you can actually, like, feel it. You can’t just hear it – you can feel it in your gut. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I can’t wait!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As one of her crew is strapping a bright yellow gas meter onto my suit, Megan tells me more about the very real dangers of being in the sewers. The big one is a lethal gas called hydrogen sulfide that can kill you before you know it’s there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> You can smell it at low levels, it smells like rotten eggs. At higher levels that actually kills the nerves, it kills your smell nerves, it kills your old factory nerves. So at higher levels, at levels high enough to be dangerous, you won’t smell it at all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And because of the gas risk, I’m getting an air pack too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s exactly like the, oxygen masks that you have on an airplane. You just put it over your face and breathe through it, and it’ll give you oxygen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Okay, well, fingers crossed we don’t end up using these. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You won’t, you won’t. But it’s good to know how to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After all this, I’m finally lowered down many feet into the tunnel by rope down a tall, rusting ladder until we splash into knee deep water and into the sewer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sounds of water splashes]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I’m staring down into a long, gaping tunnel that seems to stretch out for miles. Oh my goodness. This is exactly like I thought it would be, from watching horror movies. The air is really damp, exactly like they said it would be. You can kind of see this fine mist in the air, and I can hear my voice echoing in a really crazy way. There’s water flow under my feet… And it’s like walking through stream with a really dirty stream. Speaker 2: [00:08:45] We start to make our way toward the sewer cave that few people have seen. Megan tells me that had it been raining above ground, this tunnel would have been a lethal river of freezing water right up to the roof. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, this would totally be fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Oh, yeah. You wouldn’t – we don’t go into the system when there’s even a drizzle.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you ever wondered what it sounds like to wade through raw sewage, it’s pretty much like this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Carly wading through water]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Weirdly, it does not smell that bad in here. Well, at least not as bad as I thought. Kind of smells like if you spent time on a farm. Kind of smells like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When I started working in for the city in 2011 and doing sewer entry.. So that was after the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Lord of the Rings\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> movies came out, and it reminded me of the mines of Moria with all the pillars, except it was full of water. Yeah. I thought it was really cool. I even thought it was cool seeing little turds float by. I mean, that’s not something everyone gets to see. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As we get closer to what I’d come to see. That cave, the crashing of the ocean out on the outside world suddenly gets louder. And then looming in front of us, right there in the tunnel. There it is. What looks like the tall, wide mouth of a cave, deep under San Francisco, dark, jutting rock yawning into more blackness. The entrance to the pipe that leads out to the water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s amazing. It looks like it looks like a Middle Earth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah. Isn’t it beautiful? This is, this is definitely the most scenic and beautiful combined sewer overflow in San Francisco. It’s the only one that’s carved into raw stone like this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We walk into the cave through a stretch of that discharge pipe, and there’s the final surprise. We can see the Pacific Ocean just feet away, framed by the rock. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Water flowing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After hours underground, we’re now staring at broad daylight. This entrance, unthinkably, is how some explorers try to get in here from the outside via a tiny strip of beach that only opens up for a brief period of time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s a bad idea to go into the sewer anywhere, but it’s a really bad idea to go into the sewer via an access point that is only going to be passable for like, an hour or two.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Crouching there in that pipe, I see how quickly the waves are starting to rush towards us, a sign that it was time to hurry out of there and back above ground.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, it is definitely smelling a little different on our return journey, and I think that’s because people have woken up by now and let’s just say they are using their bathrooms. And after being reattached the rope and having my tired body hauled out of the darkness and up through the manhole again like that, I am out of the underworld. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Carly laughing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And out into daylight on the 4th of July. Cool. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So there you have it. San Francisco’s secret underground is pretty incredible, even if our legendary tunnels are actually some not so secret sewers after all. Except… maybe there’s something Sierra told me that I couldn’t get out of my mind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Mystical music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A lot of these sewers are maps. Because in the 1906 earthquake and the entire city, or the entire eastern half of the city anyway, just burned to the ground. They lost tons of records of infrastructure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And you know what? According to the city, he’s right. So there is still a touch of mystery under San Francisco, after all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Music fades]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That was KQED’s Carly Seven. This is a story that you really need to see, not just listen to. Video producer Sruti Mamidanna made a video from Carly’s trip and it is very cool. You can find it at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> – we’ll drop a link in the show notes too. It’s a new month, which means a new voting round is up at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>.\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Let’s hear the choices. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 1 : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How clean is the Bay Area water? Is it safe to swim? Are some areas better than others? What would it take to get it fully clean or safe? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Whatever happened to the Bay area’s camels? I went to high school in Benicia and heard things about the camel barns. There are no longer camels in the barns. Where did they go, and why were they there to begin with?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What’s the deal with the Devil’s Slide? And how did I get that name? Had to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to cast your vote, for which question we should answer next.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Bay Curious is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Bill, Tamuna Chkareuli, and me, Olivia Allen-Price with support from Kimberly Low, Molly Wu, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and KQED family. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll see you next week. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Take a trip with us into the hidden world lying under San Francisco's streets.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1714656525,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":126,"wordCount":4782},"headData":{"title":"Tunnels Under San Francisco? Inside the Dark, Dangerous World of the Sewers | KQED","description":"Take a trip with us into the hidden world lying under San Francisco's streets.","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Tunnels Under San Francisco? Inside the Dark, Dangerous World of the Sewers","datePublished":"2024-05-02T03:00:06-07:00","dateModified":"2024-05-02T06:28:45-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"videoEmbed":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=726sQLKGAjk","source":"Bay Curious","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious","audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC5310262395.mp3?updated=1714610657","sticky":false,"nprStoryId":"kqed-11782405","audioTrackLength":879,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11782405/tunnels-under-san-francisco-inside-the-dark-dangerous-world-of-the-sewers","parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a>, we’ve received a \u003cem>lot\u003c/em> of questions about tunnels under San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Listeners have told us they’ve heard stories of secret passageways running under the city. They’ve asked us, what is the truth about them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing I should tell you is: They’re absolutely real.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>What Lies Beneath?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>The myth of the underground — a silent world hidden under our feet — is an endlessly alluring one. There are, after all, very \u003cem>real\u003c/em> labyrinths under major world cities. Like the infamous \u003ca href=\"http://catacombes.paris.fr/en\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">catacombs of Paris\u003c/a>, lined with the bones of the city’s dead, or the \u003ca href=\"https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/odessa-catacombs\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">terrifying catacombs under Odesa\u003c/a> in Ukraine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some people get so obsessed with the idea of tunnels that they search for underground adventures themselves. They call themselves “urban explorers.” If you hit Google looking for information on San Francisco’s particular underground, there’s a name that comes up again and again — an explorer named \u003ca href=\"http://www.sierrahartman.com/sf-underground\">Sierra Hartman\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782642\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782642 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A photographer and writer, Hartman’s haunting photographs of shadowy spaces under S.F. are, for many people, their first clue that this particular world of tunnels really does exist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s just ingrained in human nature, you know?” Hartman says of the drive to venture below. “You wonder what’s down there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hartman lives in Tacoma, Washington, but grew up in Southern California. It was roaming around on his bike as a kid with friends, Goonies-style, that he discovered the dark urban waterways in his hometown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You take a 12-year-old kid and show them an entrance of a tunnel? Like, they’re \u003cem>going\u003c/em> to go in,” Hartman says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782644\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782644 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Arriving in San Francisco later in life, he began exploring the city’s streets at night with his camera. One of those nights, a chance encounter with a manhole left open led him beneath the San Francisco for the first time — and sparked an adult passion for urban exploration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Across the sleeping city, Hartman found entrances to dark, dripping tunnels, sloshing wet, that stretched for miles into the blackness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So much of it is just overgrown,” he says of those doorways. “You don’t \u003cem>realize\u003c/em> that there is a whole underground part of this thing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many urban explorers, Hartman says, he enjoyed the thrill of the hunt almost as much as the actual discovery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Like solving a puzzle,” he says. “It’s as much about solving the mystery and finding the thing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782645\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782645 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He used a mixture of publicly available records and maps, Google Earth, and whispers from fellow urban explorers, who are notoriously secretive about their finds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At least some of that is due to the risks of their enterprise. Bodily dangers aside, urban exploration represents “at best a gray area of legality in some places, and outright trespassing in other places,” as Hartman puts it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is the part where I tell you that this underground network Hartman risked bodily harm to venture into is no mysterious labyrinth built by shadowy figures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s San Francisco’s huge sewer network.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>A Complex World You Don’t See\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>“I crawl through a lot of sewer pipes. That’s basically my job,” says Megan Abadie, an assistant engineer for the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission wastewater enterprise. Her job sees her enter those same tunnels — legally — to make sure that this giant, intricate system filled with your waste keeps working the way it’s meant to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782900\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782900 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-1200x800.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in her office at San Francisco’s Public Utilities Commission. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There are a lot of misconceptions about the sewers, Abadie says. For one, what we surface-dwellers call “tunnels” aren’t truly tunnels — a term that specifically means a long run of pipe bored out of the earth with only a few manholes attached. When we talk of the “tunnels under San Francisco,” we’re usually talking, in fact, about sewer mains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco is 49 square miles but has over 1,000 miles of sewer mains under every block. What makes our system unique in California is the fact that it’s a combined system. Instead of stormwater and sewage water being separated into different pipes, as they are elsewhere in the state, in San Francisco, it all flows into the same set of pipes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782624\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782624 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut.jpg 1885w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie, deep in the San Francisco sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This is a legacy of the city’s relative age, with the foundations of our modern-day sewers being laid during the Gold Rush — in what Abadie describes as “a very ad hoc system … people would build pipes to just connect to the nearest creek.” There are still some pipes under your feet that date from the 1840s, she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just like in New York — another old, dense city — it was too hard to rip up San Francisco’s sewer network to replace the old system with secondary pipes. So we’ve repaired and adapted our old system, which is why this city still has those big, wide sewer mains … that people can’t seem to stay out of.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>A Lethal Labyrinth\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>“There’s a lot of things that can happen in the sewer that can actually kill you pretty easily,” Abadie reminds me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For one thing, there’s the risk of drowning down there. Because of San Francisco’s steep topography, Abadie and her colleagues never enter the sewers if there’s so much as a drizzle of rain anywhere in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782637\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782637 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the sewers of San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“If you’re in a large pipe at the bottom of a hill, it doesn’t take much for a big slug of water to hit you, even if it’s not raining very much where you are,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, there’s the danger of toxic gas, namely hydrogen sulfide, produced when organic material (waste matter, seaweed) starts to decompose. At low levels, it has a distinctive smell of rotten eggs. At higher levels, it affects a person’s sense of smell entirely and can knock you out — and kill you — within minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782625 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the San Francisco sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>On top of \u003cem>that\u003c/em>, there’s the threat of simply getting lost, injured or both in the sewers. Abadie and her fellow inspectors are equipped with accurate maps and supported by a large chain of people both below and above ground — weather spotters, medics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I go into the sewer system, I know exactly where I am. … You go into a pipe that you see sticking out somewhere? Open up a manhole? You’re not going to know where you are,” Abadie says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782638\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782638 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stooping low in the sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After hearing this, I had \u003cem>zero\u003c/em> intention of exploring the sewers alone for this story. But I couldn’t resist asking Megan to take me down to see an underground place that Sierra Hartman had told me about.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>A Trip into the Underworld\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>It looked more like a cave than a sewer, Hartman says. And I knew urban explorers like him would spend months, even years, trying to track down its precise location — because of how striking it looked and how it led right out to the Pacific Ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abadie knew exactly the place Hartman meant and asked me to wait until the timing was just right when it’d be safe enough at low tide, with no chance of rain. That timing turned out to be very early in the morning on the Fourth of July, the lowest tide of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782626\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782626 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Reporter Carly Severn being lowered into the sewer system. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As Abadie’s crew secured a harness and waist-high waders to my body, she explained why we’d be taking gas meters and oxygen masks down there. Even though the fast flow of the system we’d be entering would lower the hydrogen sulfide risk, “you can go into a sewer that’s been fine every single time, and one year something can be different,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With safety equipment secured, we were lowered one by one into the tunnel by rope, down a tall, rusting ladder until we finally reached the bottom of the sewer with a splash. The water reached our knees. Ahead, through the humid, misty air, was a long, high tunnel that seemed to stretch for miles in front of us. Down there in the darkness was that “sewer cave” — and the ocean. During the rainy season, Abadie reminded me that the tunnel we stood in would have been full of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782631\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1851px\">\u003ca href=\"manho\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782631 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1851\" height=\"1056\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut.jpg 1851w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-160x91.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-800x456.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-1020x582.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-1200x685.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1851px) 100vw, 1851px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Reporter Carly Severn is lowered down through a manhole. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Surprisingly, the sewers don’t smell how you might fear they would: the odor is agricultural, like a farmyard smell. Yet no matter how pleasant this surprise, wading through high sewer water in such humidity quickly becomes exhausting, like walking through deep snow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we walked through the tunnel, our voices echoing off the walls, Abadie told me about her first entries into the sewers after she started working for the city in 2011. The underground network, she says, reminded her of the vast Mines of Moria in “The Lord of the Rings.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I thought it was really cool. I even thought it was cool seeing a little turd float by! I mean, that’s not something everyone gets to see,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782632\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1885px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782632 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1885\" height=\"1060\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut.jpg 1885w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1885px) 100vw, 1885px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Exploring deep under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As we got closer to what \u003cem>I’d\u003c/em> come to see — that cave — the crashing of the Pacific Ocean suddenly grew louder. Looming in front of us, there it was: What looked like the tall, wide mouth of a cave, deep under San Francisco, carved from dark, jutting rock and yawning into more blackness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This,” Abadie says with some pride, “is definitely the most scenic and beautiful combined sewer overflow in San Francisco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782633\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"Sruti%20Mamidanna/KQED\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782633 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carly Severn and Megan Abadie in the mouth of the ‘sewer cave.’\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Passing through the cave, we had to stoop to get through the last part of our journey, our helmets scraping the ceiling. We were now inside the discharge pipe: the way the system can safely get water out during heavy storms, while providing primary-level treatment, when the usual storage areas under the city are full to the brim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the pipe, the waves we could hear crashing close suddenly became visible, as I found myself looking out at the ocean, framed by rock. After hours underground, it was now daylight out there. That entrance onto the water is, unthinkably, how some explorers try to get \u003cem>in\u003c/em> here via a tiny strip of beach that opens up only for a brief period of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782636\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1846px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782636 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1846\" height=\"1038\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut.jpg 1846w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1846px) 100vw, 1846px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A glimpse of the Pacific Ocean. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the tide started to rise, the waves started to crash further and further into the pipe toward us, and we knew it was time to go. As we moved back through the tunnel, the difference in smell was palpable: The people of San Francisco were waking up and were starting to use their bathrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After being attached to the rope and hauled out of the darkness and up through the manhole again, I was suddenly out of the city’s underworld. Exhausted, after hours of trudging through sewer water, the call of the underground was only more apparent to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what could people do, I asked Abadie, if after hearing the truth about the darkness and danger down there, they \u003cem>still\u003c/em> couldn’t resist the lure of subterranean exploration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1891px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782640 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1891\" height=\"1064\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut.jpg 1891w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1891px) 100vw, 1891px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the discharge pipe leading out to the ocean. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna )\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We have a lot of people retiring here. You can come work for us!” she says. “We will get you into sewers. It’ll be awesome. Your passion can actually get you \u003cem>paid\u003c/em> to explore sewers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Or become a public radio reporter,” she added. “Those are two ways that you can get into sewers and not die.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story first published on Oct. 31, 2019 and was updated and republished on May 2, 2024. Special thanks to Evan Thompson with his assistance for this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sounds of birds, dog barking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Around us all the time is the city that we know. The same stretch of sidewalk we walk on every day, the bus stop on the corner, our favorite restaurants, our neighborhood parks. If you live anywhere long enough, you can think you’ve seen it all. But what if beneath the streets there was another world? A place that’s so close to you all the time, but you wouldn’t even recognize it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Bay Curious theme music starts] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hey everyone, Olivia Allen-Price here. Over the years we’ve been running Bay Curious, we’ve received a bunch of questions about tunnels. Listeners who say they’ve heard stories of secret passageways running under San Francisco. \u003c/span>We aired an episode on the topic in 2019, but your questions have kept on coming … So today we’re going to revisit it, and answer the question do these tunnels exist?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor Message\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Those stories about hidden underground tunnel systems in the Bay Area. They’re true!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Underground tunnels echo]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: The structure is absolutely amazing. It’s also quite scary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: That voice you just heard was recorded deep under the streets of San Francisco, and it belongs to reporter Carly Severn. We sent her to investigate the secret world under the city,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Mystical music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> A lot of you will have heard the legends about the very real labyrinths under major world cities, like the famous catacombs of Paris, that are lined with the bones of the city’s dead. And if you hit Google looking for information on San Francisco’s underground like I did, there’s a name that comes up again and again an urban explorer called Sierra Hardman. And his incredible, haunting photographs of shadowy spaces under the city are, for many people, their first clue that this world of tunnels really exists. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think it’s just ingrained in human nature. You know, you wonder what’s down there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Sierra told me he’s been obsessed with exploring the underground since he was a kid, back when he was growing up in Southern California, riding around on his bike, Goonies style, and peering into dark urban waterways. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I mean, you take a 12 year old kid and you show them an entrance of a tunnel like they’re gonna to go in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When he was older, he moved to San Francisco and started roaming the streets with his camera while the rest of the city was sleeping, just looking for secret entry ways underground, guided by maps and city plans and whispers from other urban explorers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So much of it is just overgrown. Yeah, you drove past it so many times you don’t really recognize it as something really special. You don’t realize that there’s a whole, like, underground part of this thing.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He found doorways and manholes that led him down into dark, dripping tunnels stretching into blackness beyond the reach of his flashlight. But this network of underground spaces, this is no secret labyrinth built by shadowy figures. It’s San Francisco’s huge sewer network, and there’s one person in this city that knows the sewers inside out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: So my name’s Megan Abadie. I’m an assistant engineer for the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission Wastewater Enterprise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Megan’s job is making sure that system – yep – pipes filled with your waste works.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I crawl through a lot of sewer pipes. That’s basically my job. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Wastewater management, what we call sewers, can sound kind of gross, but how this stuff all works is pretty impressive. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco is about a seven by seven, you know, 49-50 mile square city. And we actually have over 1000 miles of sewer main. There’s sewers under every block. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The thing about the city’s sewers is many of these pipes are big. Big enough for curious risk takers to walk through rather than crawl, which isn’t possible in many other cities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco has a very different type of sewer system than pretty much any other city in California. It has what’s called a combined system. That means that the stormwater and the sewage water leak from your toilet and your sinks, it all goes into the same set of pipes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We have an old city, and that one pipe system was how folks did it back then. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco’s sewer network, began to be built during the Gold Rush era. So there are some pipes that date from the 1840s. It was a very ad hoc system at that time that people would build pipes to just connect to the nearest creek. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Just like in New York, another old dense city. It was too hard to rip up San Francisco’s sewer network to add secondary pipes. So we’ve repaired and adapted our old system, creating a maze of those big wide sewer mains. But listen, if you’re hearing this and are feeling the lure of exploring the world on the San Francisco yourself, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">don’t\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. Seriously.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a lot of things that can happen in the sewer that can actually kill you pretty easily. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was no way I was going to follow in the footsteps of an urban explorer like Sierra Hartmann and go roaming under San Francisco alone. But there was this one particular place that Sierra told me about that I knew I really wanted to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Dramatic music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A passageway somewhere beneath San Francisco that’s famous for its otherworldly look. Sierra had to pour over old sewer maps to find it. I was told it looks more like a cave than a sewer. And it leads right out onto the Pacific Ocean. Megan knew exactly the place I meant. And when conditions were just right, she said she’d take me down there herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’ll be over 200 feet below the ground, actually. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Crew conversation in the background]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And so that’s how I end up with Megan and her crew, at 2 AM on the 4th of July in a harness, in a waist-high waders, getting recording equipment taped to my body, about to be lowered down into an open manhole. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">…Does it feel..? Oh, look like it’s a good height, you don’t need to adjust the height.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our underground journey will lead us through a very watery tunnel, through that sewer cave, and into what they call a discharge pipe. Now, that pipe is the way the system can safely get water out during really heavy storms, when the usual storage areas under the city are full to the brim. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, so when we get out into the discharge pipe, you’re going to hear the ocean, just boring through this final stretch of tunnel. And you can actually, like, feel it. You can’t just hear it – you can feel it in your gut. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I can’t wait!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As one of her crew is strapping a bright yellow gas meter onto my suit, Megan tells me more about the very real dangers of being in the sewers. The big one is a lethal gas called hydrogen sulfide that can kill you before you know it’s there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> You can smell it at low levels, it smells like rotten eggs. At higher levels that actually kills the nerves, it kills your smell nerves, it kills your old factory nerves. So at higher levels, at levels high enough to be dangerous, you won’t smell it at all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And because of the gas risk, I’m getting an air pack too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s exactly like the, oxygen masks that you have on an airplane. You just put it over your face and breathe through it, and it’ll give you oxygen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Okay, well, fingers crossed we don’t end up using these. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You won’t, you won’t. But it’s good to know how to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After all this, I’m finally lowered down many feet into the tunnel by rope down a tall, rusting ladder until we splash into knee deep water and into the sewer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sounds of water splashes]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I’m staring down into a long, gaping tunnel that seems to stretch out for miles. Oh my goodness. This is exactly like I thought it would be, from watching horror movies. The air is really damp, exactly like they said it would be. You can kind of see this fine mist in the air, and I can hear my voice echoing in a really crazy way. There’s water flow under my feet… And it’s like walking through stream with a really dirty stream. Speaker 2: [00:08:45] We start to make our way toward the sewer cave that few people have seen. Megan tells me that had it been raining above ground, this tunnel would have been a lethal river of freezing water right up to the roof. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, this would totally be fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Oh, yeah. You wouldn’t – we don’t go into the system when there’s even a drizzle.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you ever wondered what it sounds like to wade through raw sewage, it’s pretty much like this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Carly wading through water]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Weirdly, it does not smell that bad in here. Well, at least not as bad as I thought. Kind of smells like if you spent time on a farm. Kind of smells like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When I started working in for the city in 2011 and doing sewer entry.. So that was after the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Lord of the Rings\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> movies came out, and it reminded me of the mines of Moria with all the pillars, except it was full of water. Yeah. I thought it was really cool. I even thought it was cool seeing little turds float by. I mean, that’s not something everyone gets to see. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As we get closer to what I’d come to see. That cave, the crashing of the ocean out on the outside world suddenly gets louder. And then looming in front of us, right there in the tunnel. There it is. What looks like the tall, wide mouth of a cave, deep under San Francisco, dark, jutting rock yawning into more blackness. The entrance to the pipe that leads out to the water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s amazing. It looks like it looks like a Middle Earth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah. Isn’t it beautiful? This is, this is definitely the most scenic and beautiful combined sewer overflow in San Francisco. It’s the only one that’s carved into raw stone like this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We walk into the cave through a stretch of that discharge pipe, and there’s the final surprise. We can see the Pacific Ocean just feet away, framed by the rock. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Water flowing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After hours underground, we’re now staring at broad daylight. This entrance, unthinkably, is how some explorers try to get in here from the outside via a tiny strip of beach that only opens up for a brief period of time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s a bad idea to go into the sewer anywhere, but it’s a really bad idea to go into the sewer via an access point that is only going to be passable for like, an hour or two.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Crouching there in that pipe, I see how quickly the waves are starting to rush towards us, a sign that it was time to hurry out of there and back above ground.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, it is definitely smelling a little different on our return journey, and I think that’s because people have woken up by now and let’s just say they are using their bathrooms. And after being reattached the rope and having my tired body hauled out of the darkness and up through the manhole again like that, I am out of the underworld. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Carly laughing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And out into daylight on the 4th of July. Cool. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So there you have it. San Francisco’s secret underground is pretty incredible, even if our legendary tunnels are actually some not so secret sewers after all. Except… maybe there’s something Sierra told me that I couldn’t get out of my mind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Mystical music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A lot of these sewers are maps. Because in the 1906 earthquake and the entire city, or the entire eastern half of the city anyway, just burned to the ground. They lost tons of records of infrastructure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And you know what? According to the city, he’s right. So there is still a touch of mystery under San Francisco, after all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Music fades]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That was KQED’s Carly Seven. This is a story that you really need to see, not just listen to. Video producer Sruti Mamidanna made a video from Carly’s trip and it is very cool. You can find it at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> – we’ll drop a link in the show notes too. It’s a new month, which means a new voting round is up at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>.\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Let’s hear the choices. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 1 : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How clean is the Bay Area water? Is it safe to swim? Are some areas better than others? What would it take to get it fully clean or safe? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Whatever happened to the Bay area’s camels? I went to high school in Benicia and heard things about the camel barns. There are no longer camels in the barns. Where did they go, and why were they there to begin with?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What’s the deal with the Devil’s Slide? And how did I get that name? Had to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to cast your vote, for which question we should answer next.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Bay Curious is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Bill, Tamuna Chkareuli, and me, Olivia Allen-Price with support from Kimberly Low, Molly Wu, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and KQED family. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll see you next week. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11782405/tunnels-under-san-francisco-inside-the-dark-dangerous-world-of-the-sewers","authors":["3243"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_8","news_33520"],"tags":["news_18426","news_26456","news_24374","news_19542","news_38"],"featImg":"news_11783907","label":"source_news_11782405"}},"programsReducer":{"possible":{"id":"possible","title":"Possible","info":"Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? 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Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.","airtime":"SUN 2pm","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Possible-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg","officialWebsiteLink":"https://www.possible.fm/","meta":{"site":"news","source":"Possible"},"link":"/radio/program/possible","subscribe":{"apple":"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/possible/id1677184070","spotify":"https://open.spotify.com/show/730YpdUSNlMyPQwNnyjp4k"}},"1a":{"id":"1a","title":"1A","info":"1A is home to the national conversation. 1A brings on great guests and frames the best debate in ways that make you think, share and engage.","airtime":"MON-THU 11pm-12am","imageSrc":"https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/1a.jpg","officialWebsiteLink":"https://the1a.org/","meta":{"site":"news","source":"npr"},"link":"/radio/program/1a","subscribe":{"npr":"https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/RBrW","apple":"https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=1188724250&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory","tuneIn":"https://tunein.com/radio/1A-p947376/","rss":"https://feeds.npr.org/510316/podcast.xml"}},"all-things-considered":{"id":"all-things-considered","title":"All Things Considered","info":"Every weekday, \u003cem>All Things Considered\u003c/em> hosts Robert Siegel, Audie Cornish, Ari Shapiro, and Kelly McEvers present the program's trademark mix of news, interviews, commentaries, reviews, and offbeat features. 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But is this once sleepy suburb ready for them?","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/American-Suburb-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg","officialWebsiteLink":"/news/series/american-suburb-podcast","meta":{"site":"news","source":"kqed","order":"13"},"link":"/news/series/american-suburb-podcast/","subscribe":{"npr":"https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/RBrW","apple":"https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?mt=2&id=1287748328","tuneIn":"https://tunein.com/radio/American-Suburb-p1086805/","rss":"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/series/american-suburb-podcast/feed/podcast","google":"https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkMzMDExODgxNjA5"}},"baycurious":{"id":"baycurious","title":"Bay Curious","tagline":"Exploring the Bay Area, one question at a time","info":"KQED’s new podcast, Bay Curious, gets to the bottom of the mysteries — both profound and peculiar — that give the Bay Area its unique identity. And we’ll do it with your help! You ask the questions. You decide what Bay Curious investigates. And you join us on the journey to find the answers.","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Bay-Curious-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg","imageAlt":"\"KQED Bay Curious","officialWebsiteLink":"/news/series/baycurious","meta":{"site":"news","source":"kqed","order":"4"},"link":"/podcasts/baycurious","subscribe":{"apple":"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406","npr":"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious","rss":"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/category/bay-curious-podcast/feed/podcast","google":"https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93dzIua3FlZC5vcmcvbmV3cy9jYXRlZ29yeS9iYXktY3VyaW91cy1wb2RjYXN0L2ZlZWQvcG9kY2FzdA","stitcher":"https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/bay-curious","spotify":"https://open.spotify.com/show/6O76IdmhixfijmhTZLIJ8k"}},"bbc-world-service":{"id":"bbc-world-service","title":"BBC World Service","info":"The day's top stories from BBC News compiled twice daily in the week, once at weekends.","airtime":"MON-FRI 9pm-10pm, TUE-FRI 1am-2am","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/BBC-World-Service-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg","officialWebsiteLink":"https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_world_service","meta":{"site":"news","source":"BBC World Service"},"link":"/radio/program/bbc-world-service","subscribe":{"apple":"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/global-news-podcast/id135067274?mt=2","tuneIn":"https://tunein.com/radio/BBC-World-Service-p455581/","rss":"https://podcasts.files.bbci.co.uk/p02nq0gn.rss"}},"code-switch-life-kit":{"id":"code-switch-life-kit","title":"Code Switch / Life Kit","info":"\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />","airtime":"SUN 9pm-10pm","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Code-Switch-Life-Kit-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg","meta":{"site":"radio","source":"npr"},"link":"/radio/program/code-switch-life-kit","subscribe":{"apple":"https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/1112190608?mt=2&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory","google":"https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnByLm9yZy9yc3MvcG9kY2FzdC5waHA_aWQ9NTEwMzEy","spotify":"https://open.spotify.com/show/3bExJ9JQpkwNhoHvaIIuyV","rss":"https://feeds.npr.org/510312/podcast.xml"}},"commonwealth-club":{"id":"commonwealth-club","title":"Commonwealth Club of California Podcast","info":"The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.","airtime":"THU 10pm, FRI 1am","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg","officialWebsiteLink":"https://www.commonwealthclub.org/podcasts","meta":{"site":"news","source":"Commonwealth Club of California"},"link":"/radio/program/commonwealth-club","subscribe":{"apple":"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/commonwealth-club-of-california-podcast/id976334034?mt=2","google":"https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw","tuneIn":"https://tunein.com/radio/Commonwealth-Club-of-California-p1060/"}},"considerthis":{"id":"considerthis","title":"Consider This","tagline":"Make sense of the day","info":"Make sense of the day. Every weekday afternoon, Consider This helps you consider the major stories of the day in less than 15 minutes, featuring the reporting and storytelling resources of NPR. Plus, KQED’s Bianca Taylor brings you the local KQED news you need to know.","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Consider-This-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg","imageAlt":"Consider This from NPR and KQED","officialWebsiteLink":"/podcasts/considerthis","meta":{"site":"news","source":"kqed","order":"7"},"link":"/podcasts/considerthis","subscribe":{"apple":"https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1503226625?mt=2&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory","npr":"https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/coronavirusdaily","google":"https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM1NS9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbA","spotify":"https://open.spotify.com/show/3Z6JdCS2d0eFEpXHKI6WqH"}},"forum":{"id":"forum","title":"Forum","tagline":"The conversation starts here","info":"KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.","airtime":"MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg","imageAlt":"KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal","officialWebsiteLink":"/forum","meta":{"site":"news","source":"kqed","order":"8"},"link":"/forum","subscribe":{"apple":"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/kqeds-forum/id73329719","google":"https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz","npr":"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/432307980/forum","stitcher":"https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqedfm-kqeds-forum-podcast","rss":"https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC9557381633"}},"freakonomics-radio":{"id":"freakonomics-radio","title":"Freakonomics Radio","info":"Freakonomics Radio is a one-hour award-winning podcast and public-radio project hosted by Stephen Dubner, with co-author Steve Levitt as a regular guest. 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